False bottom MLT; Dip Tubes in HLT and Keggle

I have two questions:

DIP TUBES
I just finished converting two sanke kegs into an HLT and keggle. I installed a center tube in the HLT and a side one in the keggle. These are ones I bought: http://www.bargainfittings.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=94
Prior to installing them my motivation/thought was that they would help siphon out more liquid. But, after testing it seems that their true value could only be appreciated if a pump is used. Even after tipping the vessel there was still almost an entire gallon of water left behind in the keggle setup with the side tube (way too much wort to be left behind on a brew day). What am I missing here? Do I need a pump? Tilting the keggle without the dip tube was much better at getting most of the test water out.

FALSE BOTTOM
I have a 10 gal drink cooler MLT with a false bottom and did my first AG batch last Monday and found that a lot of wort gets left behind because of the height of the dome on the false bottom. I tilted it, but there was still a lot of great wort left behind! That's my wort and I want it, damnit! I had an idea to add a small piece of tubing in the opening underneath the false bottom, like a dip tube, and tested it with some water today (see image below). But again, once the fluid level gets below the level of the ball valve, nothing short of suction is going to get the rest of the fluid out of there. Again tilting only helped minimally. Is this just a drawback of the false bottom? Do I need to employ suction here too?

Thanks for anyone who can give me their thoughts/experience on these two topics.

[click to see bigger image]

You only need to attach a length of tubing to the ball valve. This will prevent breaking the siphon. Water can't flow uphill, which is what you are asking it to do. Draw yourself a side view sketch of the wort level, the dip tube and the ball valve. It should jump out at you. As soon as the liquid level in the kettle or MT drops to level of the ball valve, air can enter the dip tube by way of the valve and the siphon effect will be lost. Extend the outfall with some tubing and it should drain much better. The longer the extension tube, the faster and more thoroughly it will drain (within reason, of course).

Catt22 said:

You only need to attach a length of tubing to the ball valve. This will prevent breaking the siphon. Water can't flow uphill, which is what you are asking it to do. Draw yourself a side view sketch of the wort level, the dip tube and the ball valve. It should jump out at you. As soon as the liquid level in the kettle or MT drops to level of the ball valve, air can enter the dip tube by way of the valve and the siphon effect will be lost. Extend the outfall with some tubing and it should drain much better. The longer the extension tube, the faster and more thoroughly it will drain (within reason, of course).

Click to expand...

Thanks. You're correct, it already jumped out at me - which is why I thought that I needed an active pump to do the work. What I didn't do with the water test today was attach any tubing to the other side of the valve as you suggest! Thanks for that!

After getting over my stupidity, I attached a piece of tubing to all three vessels and, as expected, they all work perfectly. In fact, the small pick up tube I inserted under the false bottom does a great job of getting all but a quarter cup of liquid out of the MLT. My college physics professor better not be trolling around here... I am sure I will get a smack in the back of the head for forgetting the basics to fluid dynamics!

Thanks again Cat22 for the help!

johnnybrew said:

After getting over my stupidity, I attached a piece of tubing to all three vessels and, as expected, they all work perfectly. In fact, the small pick up tube I inserted under the false bottom does a great job of getting all but a quarter cup of liquid out of the MLT. My college physics professor better not be trolling around here... I am sure I will get a smack in the back of the head for forgetting the basics to fluid dynamics!

Thanks again Cat22 for the help!

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LOL...it's a forest and trees kind of thing. Good to hear you got everything working properly.

In addition to having a tube on the output, when the level in the tun starts to get low I leave the end of the tube under the wort in the BK just to make sure that air doesn't get in from the outside.
What I did for my false bottom was to screw on a half collar (female to female coupling) to reach down below the top of the dome. Actually, I had a couple of spare collars, so I hacksawed one in half (well, 40/60, and used the 40% part). I used teflon tape on the threads to make an airtight seal, so I can get all but a cup of wort out of my MLT. Edit - I'm using a cooler, not a keg as MLT.

DeafSmith said:

In addition to having a tube on the output, when the level in the tun starts to get low I leave the end of the tube under the wort in the BK just to make sure that air doesn't get in from the outside.
What I did for my false bottom was to screw on a half collar (female to female coupling) to reach down below the top of the dome. Actually, I had a couple of spare collars, so I hacksawed one in half (well, 40/60, and used the 40% part). I used teflon tape on the threads to make an airtight seal, so I can get all but a cup of wort out of my MLT. Edit - I'm using a cooler, not a keg as MLT.

Click to expand...

The little piece of plastic tubing I added seems to be working pretty good too! Thanks for the info!