Would you consider changing your technique to reduce the time it takes to brew a batch. I can do a 5 gallon batch in 3 1/2 to 4 hours with more than 75% efficiency.
RM-MN, I don't want to open old wounds, but I recall calling you out on this in the past, and I believe you were counting the time from "doughing-in till pitching the yeast," and excluding the time spent weighing/milling the grains, heating the strike water, and then the eventual cleanup. Let's not mislead the OP.
That said, my brew days wrap up, start-to-finish, in 5 hours or less. Perhaps the OP could share a typical brewing day schedule and we can help identify some potential time-saving areas?
RM-MN, I don't want to open old wounds, but I recall calling you out on this in the past, and I believe you were counting the time from "doughing-in till pitching the yeast," and excluding the time spent weighing/milling the grains, heating the strike water, and then the eventual cleanup. Let's not mislead the OP.
That said, my brew days wrap up, start-to-finish, in 5 hours or less. Perhaps the OP could share a typical brewing day schedule and we can help identify some potential time-saving areas?
Yes you did call me out on this and no, it isn't just the dough in to pitching. I can count from the time I start bring equipment from my basement until it is cleaned and put away. I'm doing it BIAB and I an quite efficient on my brew day. I'll get the pot full of water and begin heating while I bring the rest of the equipment and weight the grains. Since I am heating on the kitchen stove (electric) it takes a while to heat up so I mill the grains with my Corona style mill. Since they are milled fine, I only need a 30 minute mash, probably less because using the iodine test, my starch is converted in less than 10 minutes due to the fineness of the grains. Pull the bag of grains out of the pot and turn the burner on high again to bring it to boil and then squeeze the rest of the wort out of the grains and add it back to the pot. While it is heating to boil, make sure the fermenter bucket is clean and has sanitizer in it. Put the grain mill away, dump the spent grains and rinse the bag they were in and hang to dry. Add hops as soon as the hot break falls, boil for an hour. Put the pot into a big tub of cold water with ice (snow if in season) and let it chill while I finish any more cleanup, then dump it into the fermenter and pitch the yeast. Clean up the pot and put it away.
Now I suppose you want to tell me I can't bottle a 5 gallon batch in less than 2 hours too.
How much ice are you using, and how long does it take to chill? What temperature are you pitching at?
As much ice as it takes to keep at least a little floating in the big container. If I didn't have plentiful snow available most of the time I brew, I would start with water only and let the wort cool quite a bit with that, dump it out and add fresh cold water before adding ice. I like to pitch at less than 65 F. Chilling usually takes 15 to 25 minutes. You want the level of water in the tub to be as close to the level of the wort in the kettle for efficient heat transfer. When I don't have ice, I run the hose in one end of the tub and let the excess spill out the other, hopefully taking the hottest water first.
-heating water/wort. I have a blichmann and a bayou classic 10 gal pot that I don't want to destroy so I'm typically conservative on the heat.
I can count from the time I start bring equipment from my basement until it is cleaned and put away.
I'll get the pot full of water and begin heating while I bring the rest of the equipment and weight the grains. Since I am heating on the kitchen stove (electric) it takes a while to heat up so I mill the grains with my Corona style mill.
Since they are milled fine, I only need a 30 minute mash
Pull the bag of grains out of the pot and turn the burner on high again to bring it to boil
Add hops as soon as the hot break falls, boil for an hour.
Put the pot into a big tub of cold water with ice (snow if in season) and let it chill while I finish any more cleanup
then dump it into the fermenter and pitch the yeast.
Clean up the pot and put it away.
I apologize for the tangent, but let's just run some numbers, out of curiousity.
OK, let's say it takes you 5 minutes to bring your gear upstairs and fill your pot with your strike water. In my setup, it takes me about 15 minutes to get 4 gallons of strike water to dough-in temperature, but I'm using a propane burner, and I start with hot water from the tap that's already 120° F. If you're starting with cold water and using an electric stove, can we call it 30 minutes to get 4 gallons up to 160°? I'll concede that you're doing other tasks while this is happening, so let's assume your grains get milled and everything else is set up during the 30 minutes you're waiting to reach temperature.
Doughing-in is not instantaneuous - figure another 10 minutes to securely attach the grain bag, then dump in the grains, stir to mix well, wait for the temperature to settle at the rest temperature, then seal up the tun/pot.
30 minutes is a little brief (10 is absurdly so), but I'll go with it, for the sake of argument. By the end of your mash, you're already 1:15 into it.
Again, it takes time to raise the temperature from 150-ish up to boiling. With my propane setup, that amounts to about half an hour (rising 2 degrees per minute), but I'll allow that your stove somehow achieves comparable performance, and 30 minutes after lifting the grain bag, you're boiling. That's 1:45.
My break falls in 5-10 minutes, so with the hour-long boil, you've now spent 2:55.
As someone else noted, if you're doing other stuff, then you're not swirling the wort to speed up chilling, and thus there's no way you're getting that chilled down in 15 minutes. Heck, I use a plate chiller, running my hose water through 50' of copper coil immersed in ice water, and it still takes me 20 minutes to get 5 gallons down to 65° F. Can I call this 30 minutes? Now we're up to 3:25.
5 minutes, at most. That's 3:30.
Hold on there, tiger. There are a lot of tasks you're skimming over here. It takes me a good 15 minutes to clean my kettle, but granted, that includes removing, dismantling, cleaning, reassembling, and reinstalling a Hop Stopper. But even the kettle itself gets a thorough scrubbing with PBW, followed by a couple rinse cycles. What about your chiller? Don't you at least hose it off? Did you not take a gravity sample? Do you clean your hydrometer and test jar afterwards? Taste the sample? Do you take any notes about the gravity, colour, etc.? Did you aerate the wort somehow? Carry it to the basement and put it in a swamp cooler? Cover it with a t-shirt and confirm the temperature? Clean the funnel used to pour in the yeast? Pack up the chiller, autosiphon, hydrometer, BrewHauler, whatever else? All of the things I just listed take me at least a half an hour in total.
There's your 4 hours. And if you'd done a "proper" (tongue-in-cheek) 60 minute mash, it'd be 4.5 hours, which, not coincidentally, is how long it takes me.
-heating water/wort. I have a blichmann and a bayou classic 10 gal pot that I don't want to destroy so I'm typically conservative on the heat.
-monkeying around without a HLT. I'm building one from a 1/4 barrel keg, but for now I heat my water in my BK and run my first runnings into a smaller SS pot (2.5 gal) then use then while waiting for the sparge water to sit for 30 mins I transfer the wort via siphon to the BK.
It sounds like I need a new stove. Most electric stoves that I've encountered have a hard time boiling 6+ gallons. His can apparently work as quickly as an outdoor propane burner.
I brew on a solid surface stove. I start boils with either 6.75 or 7.25 gallons depending on boil time (60 vs 90 minutes). I bring my BK up to a boil from ~150F in about 30 minutes. Once I reach a boil I have to turn my dial down from 10 to about 8.5 to maintain a good rolling boil.
Conclusion: I guess you DO need a new stove
Regardless, RM-MN can accomplish their brewday quicker than most folks. What's the big deal? There are lots of variables at play here. Mashes can be under 15 minutes at high temps. Boils need not conform to the 60 minute minimum requirement. Not everyone needs to be as meticulous (i.e. anal) about cleaning their equipment as I am. When reading a post like this I generally use the consensus as a good baseline rather than what just one person can do (they're considered a statistical outlier).
Mashes can be under 15 minutes at high temps. Boils need not conform to the 60 minute minimum requirement.
I do not see how this works. Since mash temps varying from 150deg F to 155 deg F can be the difference between a dry final product and a malty final product, hotter mash temps will denature the enzymes. That is one small part of what the boil does. Enzymes work in a specific range of temperatures so how is it that a higher temperature mash will convert things faster or am I reading what you wrote wrong?
If, on the other hand you are saying that standard 150-5 mash temps will convert fully in 15 minutes, you must be using a fair bit of 6-row/high diastatic grains, or nothing but base grains ground to flour. Enzumes can only work so fast.
Enzymes work faster at higher temps. A 158 mash will be done before a 148 mash, for example.
The key step in mashing is called the conversion step. Frequently done at a temperature between 146F/63C and 156F/69C, the conversion step breaks down complex sugars in the grains into shorter chains of sugar that can be consumed by yeast. If you are doing a single step infusion mash, the conversion step is your single step.
The temperature of your conversion step determines, in large part, what percentage of the complex sugars are broken down into simpler sugars. This is due to the enzymes active in the mash that break down complex sugars into simpler ones.
The two main enzymes active during the mash are alpha and beta amylase. Alpha amylase, which is most active in the 154-167F/68-75C range, creates longer sugar chains that are less fermentable, resulting in a beer with more body. Beta amylase, which is most active between 130-150F/54-65 C trims off single maltose sugar units that are more fermentable. This results in a more complete fermentation (higher attenuation) and a cleaner beer with a thinner body.
Conversely, a high temperature conversion step (154F-156F/68-69 C) emphasizing alpha amylase gives you more unfermentable sugars, resulting in lower alcohol content and a full bodied beer with a lot of mouth-feel. Moderate conversion temperatures (150-153F/65-67C) result in a medium body beer.
I am not trying to argue, but I believe your logic may be flawed there.
As is detailed here on the beersmith website.
If you mash at 158 you are going to be converting mainly using the Alpha amalayse enzyme which should end up with a far less fermentable wort. Mashing closer to the lower 150's would yield a more fermentable wort where you have more shorter chain sugars which ferment well.
I am not trying to argue, but I believe your logic may be flawed there.
As is detailed here on the beersmith website.
If you mash at 158 you are going to be converting mainly using the Alpha amalayse enzyme which should end up with a far less fermentable wort. Mashing closer to the lower 150's would yield a more fermentable wort where you have more shorter chain sugars which ferment well.
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Yes, it'll be less fermentable, but the mash will be finished faster (all of the starch will be converted to (longer chain in this case) sugars).
Also, 60 min boils are for DMS reduction as well as the bittering hop additions. Different boil times on hops equal different hop utilization.
Okay, you may be correct that the alpha amylase may break down the starches quicker as they have less to do(though i cannot confirm/disconfirm that), but in the process you have denatured many of the beta amylase enzymes and in no way will end up with the same beer the recipe calls for. I would stick with the standard recipe reccomendations for mash temps or between the two so that I end up with a balanced beer and less of a malt bomb. Maltiness is good for some styles, (Oktoberfests, Brown ales, etc), but such a high mash temp would be counterintuative in a dry stout or a pale lager or any other style which calls for dryness or a low FG.
So I repeat, enzymes can only work so fast.
I do not see how this works. Since mash temps varying from 150deg F to 155 deg F can be the difference between a dry final product and a malty final product, hotter mash temps will denature the enzymes. That is one small part of what the boil does. Enzymes work in a specific range of temperatures so how is it that a higher temperature mash will convert things faster or am I reading what you wrote wrong?
If, on the other hand you are saying that standard 150-5 mash temps will convert fully in 15 minutes, you must be using a fair bit of 6-row/high diastatic grains, or nothing but base grains ground to flour. Enzumes can only work so fast.
Also, 60 min boils are for DMS reduction as well as the bittering hop additions. Different boil times on hops equal different hop utilization.
Mashing
In a 10-gallon insulated cooler, combine the malts with 3 gallons plus 2 cups of 173F water. The water should cool slightly when mixed with the grain. Hold the mash at 157F for 10 minutes.
Add 1 gallon plus 12 cups of 182F water. The mixture should come up to 165F.
Ultimately it doesn't matter. But, I'm naturally a skeptical person and I just have my doubts, especially with the cooling so quickly with just an ice bath and no stirring (that he mentioned at least).
Once again. It all depends on the recipe/ingredients/beer you are brewing. If you use a lot of pilsner malts you will want a longer boil.
The half-life for DMS is 40 minutes, so half of the DMS will be boiled off in a 40 minute vigorous boil. So if we do the math, a 60 minute boil gets rid of 64.7% of the DMS and a 90 minute boil rids us of 79% of the DMS. That is why most experienced brewers recommend a 90 minute or longer vigorous boil.
Right, you wouldn't change the mash temp of a recipe just to save time. But nobody was talking about a specific recipe. He just said "mashes can be under 15 minutes at high temps".
And it's not that the alpha amylase works faster than the beta amylase at high temps, it's that all enzymes and all chemical reactions in nature occur faster with higher heat. Increasing the heat increases the energy in the system which makes molecules move around faster which increases the rate of reaction.
Not necessarily. Temperature will speed up the enzymes activity to a point. But if you go above the working temperature of an enzyme it will denature (break/modify the enzyme so that it doesnt work anymore) it. Yes it will work for a little while above its working temperature range but will denautre and not work anymore. If you make it further above the range it will denature faster. Denaturing the enzymes is how we control the fermentability of the wort.
Ok you do have a semantic point that you could possibly complete a conversion in 15 minutes (once again I have not tested this so I do not know for certain), but it will not be a mash according to the recipe. Maybe I am just a stickler for having the intended beer rather than just be in a rush. If I wanted a mash done in 15 minutes I would just use extracts to better effect.
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