Brewers Assoc. Craft vs Crafty

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terrapinj

terrapinj

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http://www.brewersassociation.org/p...afty-a-statement-from-the-brewers-association

Is anyone else really put off by this recent article and attempt to more strictly define which breweries are craft and which are "crafty"?

I understand their intent to educate people or to call out InBev etc for their attempts to get into the craft scene by acquisition or spinoff breweries but feel they are alienating quality breweries in the process.

They list some of their own member breweries as not-craft Goose Island, Magic Hat and probably a few others.

They try to pigeonhole use of adjuncts as no longer qualifying as craft beer. This one really bugs me since adjuncts extend far beyond using corn or rice. By their definition most Belgian beers and all the Trappist breweries should not be considered craft beer.

There are some errors in who is deemed "Small." MillerCoors is considered small yet somehow Mendocino brewing isn't small even though they don't come anywhere close to brewing 6million barrels.

Here is a good response from August Schell brewing
http://beerpulse.com/2012/12/august...-in-response-to-craft-vs-crafty-shame-on-you/
 
I agree with you, terrapinj. To say that a "craft" brewery that is owned by a larger entity is thus, by definition, not a craft brewery is mere elitism. I would prefer that the concept of craft brewing refer more to a dedication to the art of brewing great beer, of a belief that if you brew a beer with great flavor, it will sell, rather than brewing to the lowest common denominator.

I have long argued that the greatest brewers in this country probably work for A-B, Miller, and Coors. Think about it: a Budweiser brewed in St. Louis tastes exactly like one made in Newark or Los Angeles. I challenge any "craft" brewer to accomplish that. The problem is that those big brewers also place too much priority on the cost of goods sold. They sacrifice the flavor of their beer for fear of alienating some beer drinkers. However, those businesses also learned that there are beer drinkers who are more interested in stronger flavored beers. So they spin-off breweries the produce more distinctive products or purchase controlling interests in smaller breweries that do that.

I'm OK with that. I would love to see some of the billions of marketing dollars siphoned off to promote genuinely flavorful beers, instead of the blander products that are traditionally advertised.
 
I for one don't get hung up on craft vs 'crafty'. If a brewery makes quality beer I will purchase it. If a brewery makes inferior beer, I won't purchase it. I don't care if it's made by BMC or by some dude nanobrewing down the road, I merely care that it's a tasty beverage...
 
As long as they dont get to crafty and start stealing shelf space from the bomber shelves
 
passedpawn said:
Thanks BA, but I'll judge for myself. I'm guessing most of my brothers here will too.
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This

I don't need some moronic guild to tell me what is and is not craft beer and in this age of the internet it is very easy to discover who owns and produces who if a person were that worried about it.
 
I was thinking about this article while brewing today (and quite possibly breaking a fever) when it occured to me what this article might be asking so someone chime in and answer me this...

Are they using this as a platform for some type of legislation requiring a certification in order to get a "trappist" stamp? Because this is how it struck me.
 
Nightshade said:
I was thinking about this article while brewing today (and quite possibly breaking a fever) when it occured to me what this article might be asking so someone chime in and answer me this...

Are they using this as a platform for some type of legislation requiring a certification in order to get a "trappist" stamp? Because this is how it struck me.
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I skimmed the article, but I think they are working towards a "BA Craft-Approved" registration. Not legislation, which woudn't work, but more of a de facto approval. I think it's a good marketing idea.
 
passedpawn said:
I skimmed the article, but I think they are working towards a "BA Craft-Approved" registration. Not legislation, which woudn't work, but more of a de facto approval. I think it's a good marketing idea.
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Sounds like another fee to do the same research any moron with an internet connection can do but is too lazy to do for themselves, and you know the fee will be passed to the consumer.

So while everyone extols the virtues of this organization they are simply out to make a buck the easy way off the backs of the workers the same as any other scam artist or union.

I'm going to go drink my very own non certified brew now
 
Nightshade said:
I was thinking about this article while brewing today (and quite possibly breaking a fever) when it occured to me what this article might be asking so someone chime in and answer me this...

Are they using this as a platform for some type of legislation requiring a certification in order to get a "trappist" stamp? Because this is how it struck me.
Click to expand...

i see it as more of a marketing campaign - they have no control over labeling etc

the fact that they call Magic Hat and Goose Island out as non-craft and yet allow them to be members of the BA really makes me scratch my head as to what they are trying to accomplish
 
I could care less about who brewed a beer. If there is a superior product on the market and the price is right, I will purchase it, regardless of who owns the controlling number of shares. This is the American way, and I don't feel an ounce of guilt if it came straight from St. Louis, and neither should anyone else.
 
hercher said:
I have long argued that the greatest brewers in this country probably work for A-B, Miller, and Coors. Think about it: a Budweiser brewed in St. Louis tastes exactly like one made in Newark or Los Angeles. I challenge any "craft" brewer to accomplish that.QUOTE]

I think this part of your argument falls flat. I am not saying that BMC doesn't have great brewers, but to say making a crap product consistently makes you great is false. A mcdonalds burger tastes like a mcdonalds burger nationwide, it always taste the same kind of bad, and no one cooking those burgers would be considered the best chefs in America. To have a recipe that you don't deviate from, with a supply chain supplying the exact same supplies, I will say AB In-bev has some great computers that accurately measure ingredients and control temperature on a very large scale, but that does not make a great brewer.

We are about to see with Sierra Nevada and New Belgium opening in NC that a craft brewer sure can have that same consistency, and on a good product to boot!
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Indytruks138 said:
hercher said:
I have long argued that the greatest brewers in this country probably work for A-B, Miller, and Coors. Think about it: a Budweiser brewed in St. Louis tastes exactly like one made in Newark or Los Angeles. I challenge any "craft" brewer to accomplish that.QUOTE]

I think this part of your argument falls flat. I am not saying that BMC doesn't have great brewers, but to say making a crap product consistently makes you great is false. A mcdonalds burger tastes like a mcdonalds burger nationwide, it always taste the same kind of bad, and no one cooking those burgers would be considered the best chefs in America. To have a recipe that you don't deviate from, with a supply chain supplying the exact same supplies, I will say AB In-bev has some great computers that accurately measure ingredients and control temperature on a very large scale, but that does not make a great brewer.

We are about to see with Sierra Nevada and New Belgium opening in NC that a craft brewer sure can have that same consistency, and on a good product to boot!
Click to expand...

So you are saying that consistency of brewers across a wide range of locales is neither impressive nor does it make a good brewer?

Maybe I should quit taking notes every time I brew regarding process, grains, hops, temps, transfer times, OG and FG because apparently consistency means nothing.
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I'm all for a program that disambiguates small breweries from those pretending to be small breweries. I don't think anyone's saying that large breweries can't make good beer -- but I personally like to support smaller businesses, and ideally local ones. I'd like to see the same certification across industries, though, so I can see if a restaurant is a true local business, or one instance of a massive multinational chain. It's not always as obvious as one might think.
 
ong said:
I'm all for a program that disambiguates small breweries from those pretending to be small breweries. I don't think anyone's saying that large breweries can't make good beer -- but I personally like to support smaller businesses, and ideally local ones. I'd like to see the same certification across industries, though, so I can see if a restaurant is a true local business, or one instance of a massive multinational chain. It's not always as obvious as one might think.
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Oh so now we have the "starbucks argument" as I like to call it. It goes like this, "Starbucks is evil, they are the McDonalds of coffee and pay substandard wages while charging a premium for burnt coffee" or something along those lines and then you proudly disply your Dutch Mafia sticker.

So at what point is Dutch Brothers in the same ranks as Starbucks? Then to bring it home, is Sam Adams really still a craft brewer? Is Sierra Nevada still a craft brewer?

At some point they all cross over and are just as evil as those you trash for having succeeding so where do you draw the line exactly? Or are they exempt forever because they don't have a hundred year history and brew a different style than pilsner?
 
At least someone finally cleared up the confusion that millercoors is actually 100% owned by millercoors....
 
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the people that care about the craft vs crafty argument, care enough to find out if a given beer is craft or crafty, without needing a label that says "this may look and taste like a craft beer, but inbev owns it so it's not".
 
In my lifetime many large corporations have switched from owning and operating large research and development organizations to not doing any research and instead buying successful start ups to get access to new technologies.

It seems to me that Miller Coors and ABInbev are following this model by and investing in successful craft breweries (Goose Island, Redhook, etc). I imagine that there are plenty of craft breweries who would like to be purchased. There is a big pay off and they get access to large marketing and distribution networks.

I don't see anything wrong with big beer following this model. I still drink Bud on occasion and I still buy beers from the purchased craft breweries. That being said I also like to support the little guy.

To me craft beer is about variety. I don't buy the same beer very often and I like it that way.
 
biestie said:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the people that care about the craft vs crafty argument, care enough to find out if a given beer is craft or crafty, without needing a label that says "this may look and taste like a craft beer, but inbev owns it so it's not".
Click to expand...

As someone who cares enough, I agree with this statement and I do put a lot of work into figuring out who makes the beer I buy.

I greatly prefer that my money goes to fund regional, small and generally privately-owned breweries and thus I won't buy anything owned by AB/InBev, MillerCoors or Heineken. If someone hands me one for free, I'll thank them and drink it but in most cases it's a bottle of complete junk or horsepiss.

I'm not an anti-corporatist at all, I'm a free market libertarian...but I believe that my dollars are a vote in the marketplace and I choose to vote for small business (and mostly American-owned) breweries only.

We have two international conglomerates controlling more then 80% of the American beer market and they're gaining more and more control of shelf space every day. Distributors are being pushed further and further to disassociate with competing small breweries in favor of staying brand-loyal to the majors. The truth is that there isn't enough shelf space for all the breweries out there, and the big boys are responding by diversifying and disguising their offerings while buying controlling interests in regional craft operators so they can continue to increase their retail footprint and limit or prevent market access for smaller companies.

In the old days that was called "Anti-competitive" and the government started swinging the anti-trust hammer at them.

American consumers are getting a taste for "craft" beer, but walk down most supermarket beer coolers and what you see is Shocktop, Blue Moon, Goose Island, Kona, Widmer Brothers, Red Hook, and Omission all placed prominently as your "craft" beer choices and all of then are partly or wholly owned by AB-InBev and MillerCoors. If you're lucky, you'll find cold Sam, Sierra, Shiner and one local brewery depending on your region...but you might not find anything at all. At the taps it can be even worse. I went a solid week in Florida once without seeing a single non-major beer on tap. I know many people enjoy it, but Blue Moon is not my idea of a "premium" beer.

I think homebrewers of all people should care what they're drinking, they should care who makes it, where it comes from and where their hard earned money goes at the end of the day. We are the kind of nerds that spend endless hours on the internet studying how to clone obscure microbrew offerings, so why shouldn't you put the same effort into learning about who makes the beer you buy?

I don't begrudge AB-InBev and MillerCoors for existing...they employ tons of people in the US, but as they gain greater control of distribution, control of shelf space and control of bar taps, they're fully operating under the "embrace, extend and extinguish" model of business as it applies to distribution. That will eventually have a real impact on all of us as consumers, so I will continue to vote against them in the marketplace.
 
Nightshade said:
Oh so now we have the "starbucks argument" as I like to call it. It goes like this, "Starbucks is evil, they are the McDonalds of coffee and pay substandard wages while charging a premium for burnt coffee" or something along those lines and then you proudly disply your Dutch Mafia sticker.

So at what point is Dutch Brothers in the same ranks as Starbucks? Then to bring it home, is Sam Adams really still a craft brewer? Is Sierra Nevada still a craft brewer?

At some point they all cross over and are just as evil as those you trash for having succeeding so where do you draw the line exactly? Or are they exempt forever because they don't have a hundred year history and brew a different style than pilsner?
Click to expand...

First of all, in my book Dutch Bros. is already in the same boat as Starbucks. Although it doesn't particularly matter to me, since I don't drive a car, and don't frequent drive-up coffee joints anyway.

But more importantly, no one said anything about "evil." And I don't trash companies for succeeding. But I do feel that larger companies, unless they make concerted efforts otherwise, start trying to "maximize shareholder value" rather than providing for employees and doing right by their customers. How many larger corporations have a reasonable wage differential between their highest-paid and lowest paid employees? Now that Ben and Jerry's is owned by Unilever, I can't think of any off the top of my head.
 
I personally would like to see "product of InBev, SABMiller...ect" on the label only because I hate the fact they hide their products behind a fake brewery name to sell to the craft beer market. By doing this they can steal shelf space from the real micro breweries and the public doesn't know the difference.
 
I have always used the word "craft" strictly... more "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" type of meaning. My partner and I have a small custom furniture shop that we runs nights and weekends. We go to the sawmill, we talk to the sawyer, we source our lumber, we work with defects..... in short, we practice the craft. A large manufacturer like, say, Stickley, just orders X board feed of perfect cherry. Another large manufacturer like Thos. Moser, still hand-selects everything even though they operate on a scale that we could only dream of.

It is an issue of how close you are to the materials and the process.

Is that valid? probably not, but it allows us to sell our items at a premium.
 
This article is part of an education campaign. This is intended to raise awareness of dishonest business practices that are designed to co-opt a trend in beer preferences. More and more people are becoming interested in craft beer, both because of the flavors and the fact they are small businesses. This article is trying to let more people know that not everything that looks a little 'different' or 'crafty' is actually made by a small, independent company.

The idea that people that care who makes their beer are already going to do the homework to find out is a load of crap. There have been many times I've pointed out to friends that the beer they were drinking was made by AB-InBev, SAB, or MillerCoors and they decided right then and there that they didn't want another one. And then I pointed them towards beer they'd really enjoy that is made by a small, and often locally owned-operated, brewery. A lot of my friends are into craft beer to at least some extent, and part of the reason for that is that they want to support small businesses.

I didn't re-read this article, but doesn't it say that craft brewers support about 4 times as many employees as the macros? So, with a fraction of the market, they employ that many more people? In other words, it isn't just rich people investing in stocks that are living off of this industry. Just imagine if the whole beer market was made up of small, local breweries. That employment number would be sky high.

When I buy commercial beer, these days I buy mostly stuff made within my own state. There are a few other craft breweries that I buy from. When I spend the little bit of money I have, I like being in charge of where it goes. When huge corporations hide the fact that they own and profit from the beer masquerading as craft beer, they aren't giving the average beer buyer a chance to make that choice. I don't like that.
 
Barnesie said:
As someone who cares enough, I agree with this statement and I do put a lot of work into figuring out who makes the beer I buy.

I greatly prefer that my money goes to fund regional, small and generally privately-owned breweries and thus I won't buy anything owned by AB/InBev, MillerCoors or Heineken. If someone hands me one for free, I'll thank them and drink it but in most cases it's a bottle of complete junk or horsepiss.

I'm not an anti-corporatist at all, I'm a free market libertarian...but I believe that my dollars are a vote in the marketplace and I choose to vote for small business (and mostly American-owned) breweries only.
...

I think homebrewers of all people should care what they're drinking, they should care who makes it, where it comes from and where their hard earned money goes at the end of the day.
Click to expand...

Fully agree with this. The problem I have with the article is the implicit belief that beer made by the large conglomerates is, by definition, bad, and the beer made by small local breweries is, by definition, better than anything made by larger breweries.

I've had a lot of beer made in brewpubs or small "craft" breweries that ranged from mediocre to undrinkable. I've had beer made by larger breweries that was quite good.

To be sure, there may be reasons to avoid purchasing from some of the larger breweries that have little or nothing to do with the quality of the product. This is true for all industries. I won't shop at Wal-Mart, for example, even though I know they do have lower prices than their competition. I like to buy products that are made in America, not because they are better, but simply because it supports jobs in America.
 
hercher said:
Fully agree with this. The problem I have with the article is the implicit belief that beer made by the large conglomerates is, by definition, bad, and the beer made by small local breweries is, by definition, better than anything made by larger breweries.

I've had a lot of beer made in brewpubs or small "craft" breweries that ranged from mediocre to undrinkable. I've had beer made by larger breweries that was quite good.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's as much of a stretch as you do obviously. We're talking subjective measures, but it's logical to ascribe some higher expected level of quality to small craftsmanship when compared with a gigantic commoditized manufacturing operation. Note that i say "expected level" not resulting level.

I can buy a bed from Ikea or I can commission a bed to be made for me. I would expect the craftsman to make a better product then Ikea...but naturally my bed might be constructed by a dolt with eight thumbs. My expectations would still be that the craftsman would make a superior product when compared with the mass-produced item.
 
hercher said:
Fully agree with this. The problem I have with the article is the implicit belief that beer made by the large conglomerates is, by definition, bad, and the beer made by small local breweries is, by definition, better than anything made by larger breweries.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. And let's not pretend that the craft brewers don't engage in practices that a brewing purest would object to. A local brewpub which happens to be part of a chain of brew pubs trucks their wort in. The only thing done on the premises is fermentation. This allows them to call themselves a brewpub without really being a brew pub, and the average consumer doesn't know the difference. I might object if I thought they'd care.

Another complaint often raised about the big brewers is that they make decisions on ingredients based on cost. But every brewer has to do that. JZ has discussed his commercial version of Evil Twin, and that it's not the same as his homebrew version because it's not economical to do all the bittering late in the boil.

All that being said, I don't remember the last timer I bought a sixer of anything made by miller our bud. But that has nothing to do with my "brewing politics".

Speaking of politics, if there's one thing that I really object to, it's our laws that were designed to prevent monopolies, but have actuality promoted them.
 
IffyG said:
I for one don't get hung up on craft vs 'crafty'. If a brewery makes quality beer I will purchase it. If a brewery makes inferior beer, I won't purchase it. I don't care if it's made by BMC or by some dude nanobrewing down the road, I merely care that it's a tasty beverage...
Click to expand...

This...

Equally amusing is that "craft" came into popular use because micro-brew was no longer applicable to some of the producers making non BMC beer and now apparently we need further distinctions to save us from the evils of mass produced beer owned by GASP...corporations.
 
I wish I could subscribe to the idea that if they make good beer then I don't care who they are. However, InBev and MillerCoors etc. are waging war on "craft breweries". The movie Beer Wars highlights why these companies are buying the smaller companies and coming out with their own spinoff micros. It is not in respect for brewing but in gorilla tactics to own all of the shelf space. That outrages me and therefore I care who makes the beer.

As to the semantics behind Craft and Crafty: Who cares. Everyone makes a choice when they buy beer. My choice is to group places like Goose Island in with Shock Top and Stella. Do they make good beer? Yes. Do they make it for the passion of beer? Probably. Do I buy their product? Nope.
 
hercher said:
I won't shop at Wal-Mart, for example, even though I know they do have lower prices than their competition. I like to buy products that are made in America, not because they are better, but simply because it supports jobs in America.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of your post except for this. Did you know that Wal-mart is the largest employer in the US except for the US Dept of Defense? (Sorry, :off:)
 
dbsmith said:
I agree with most of your post except for this. Did you know that Wal-mart is the largest employer in the US except for the US Dept of Defense? (Sorry, :off:)
Click to expand...

Not that I disagree but.... they also have the largest number of employees pulling welfare benefits while being employed.


I know :off: but worth noting
 
I agree with letting people know that Blue Moon and Shock Top are scams. I didn't see anyone disparaging Magic Hat in the article. Coming from the Beast Coast originally, I do remember them as a scrappy DIY startup from the People's State of Vermont. It would be a shame if they were not that anymore.

Other than that I don't think nit picking solves anything. Coming from the Punk scene I have seen the elitist attitude destroy too many wonderful things.
 
WastedCider said:
I agree with letting people know that Blue Moon and Shock Top are scams. I didn't see anyone disparaging Magic Hat in the article. Coming from the Beast Coast originally, I do remember them as a scrappy DIY startup from the People's State of Vermont. It would be a shame if they were not that anymore.

Other than that I don't think nit picking solves anything. Coming from the Punk scene I have seen the elitist attitude destroy too many wonderful things.
Click to expand...


I think the explanation and education attempts were fine but don't think calling out certain breweries was necessary. Mendocino brewing was some of the 1st craft beer that helped show me there was plenty of good beer out there aside from BMC stuff. I had a college roommate from VT that exposed me to magic hat as well. to me these breweries were early pioneers of craft beer long before it became trendy


edit: it looks like they took down the chart that specified who they deemed craft vs crafty
 
Okay - I had to rewrite this whole post because I skipped a part in the Magic Hat Wiki page. It looks like they were bought in 2k10 by North American Breweries. FIFCO acquired North American Breweries in October of this year. Apparently Magic Hat bought Pyramid in 2008. My friend is a taster for the Pyramid brands up in Portland. I can ask her if any of this corporate juggling has affected overall beer quality. What I believe Randy Mosher refers to as the rule of beer accountants destroying beer.

Sierra Neveda is huge too. But they are a socially responsible company that uses their used water to hydrate their hop fields. They have an incredibly low footprint. I guess I just have to stick to them when I am out. InBev seems to own most of the imports I thought were on their own feet (Leffe, Franzikaner, etc). InBev is truly evil. I don't know much about FIFCO or North American Breweries. Some corporations can be responsible. Conglomerates however rarely are.
 
Sorry to question conventional 'wisdom', but how exactly is InBev evil? Because they buy up smaller companies? Because they are competitive? Because they have started noticing that people enjoy more than bud light and have begun making new beers? Please, enlighten me. Sorry, but I don't buy into the 'corporations are inherently evil' bologna.
 
If I like a beer, why do I care about if it makes the cut for a category?

If BMC suddenly made the most amazing beer I ever tasted, I would be a little confused, but I would drink it the same as if it was made by the most micro of micro brews in one gallon batches.
Quality speaks for it's self. Placing the brewer in a category is marketing.

If your motive is to support local breweries, what's it matter who pays for the brick, mortar and advertising.
 
Well, according to Sam Calagione from Dogfishhead in the film Beer Wars, InBev is incredibly litigious by trumping up lawsuits against DFH and other micros to drain their operating expenses with legal fees. Also, I don't know if I consider plotting display space for beer stores, distributors and grocery stores as "competitive". I consider it leveraging influence to shut out smaller companies who have a negligible affect on InBevs bottom line.

But I guess it is a tomato tomahto thing. I am leery of corporate strong arm tactics. I think they are generally bad for the marketplace and stifle the economy by raising the bar of entry for new entrepreneurs. Some consider it corporate warriordom that should be championed, not shamed. I don't know which perspective is right. I just know how I react to it.
 

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