Note On Bleach

If you use bleach in hot water, it ruins its qualities as a sanitizer. Bleach is meant to be used in room temp or cooler water. However, i see that plenty of people are using it with warm water and that may work fine because the water is so hot, it is killing the bacteria on its own, but just a note, if you CAN , try to use 72 degree or cooler water when using bleach to sanitize your equipment, it will be much safer in terms of the sanitized final product.

I don't use bleach and i'm not sure I come close to condoning it near anything consumable, but i also don't condone the idea of a spoiled batch because of overheated bleach. Beer being abused due to ignorance is just wrong!

Or just buy a very inexpensive no rinse sanitizer and be done with it.

its02003 said:

If you use bleach in hot water, it ruins its qualities as a sanitizer. Bleach is meant to be used in room temp or cooler water. However, i see that plenty of people are using it with warm water and that may work fine because the water is so hot, it is killing the bacteria on its own, but just a note, if you CAN , try to use 72 degree or cooler water when using bleach to sanitize your equipment, it will be much safer in terms of the sanitized final product.

I don't use bleach and i'm not sure I come close to condoning it near anything consumable, but i also don't condone the idea of a spoiled batch because of overheated bleach. Beer being abused due to ignorance is just wrong!

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I've actually read that bleach on it's own isn't a sanitizer. In order to make it a sanitizer, you need to lower the PH with vinegar. Mix bleach into water, then add vinegar (not sure of the portions, and never bleach and vinegar directly together) to lower the PH, in order to make it a sanitizer. Otherwise, it's a disinfectant.

As a Microbiologist who has suffered through many chemistry classes and countless lab safety courses, it pains me to see incorrect advice given with the "I heard" reference. Especially when it results in dangerous advice.
Bleach kills everything with very few exceptions (none of which are likely to be in your house). The temperature doesn't really matter. Although hot water will volatilize the bleach faster, it will not make it impotent unless you are actively heating it for a fair amount of time. Hot water and bleach will make a lot more fumes, so careful sticking your head in an enclosed space with it.
Adding an acid (like vinegar) to bleach (acid is low pH, base is high pH) will create heat and if you add strong enough acid to strong enough bleach it can cause a LOT of heat quickly. If you do this in a closed container, that is a bomb. Even if the top is open, it might geyser into your face. The detergent action and a fair amount of it's universal killing power is based on it's low pH, so neutralizing it is not a good idea.
Bleach is very good at what it does, but I second the no-rinse sanitizer nod for most applications.

Jeremy

srm775 said:

I've actually read that bleach on it's own isn't a sanitizer. In order to make it a sanitizer, you need to lower the PH with vinegar. Mix bleach into water, then add vinegar (not sure of the portions, and never bleach and vinegar directly together) to lower the PH, in order to make it a sanitizer. Otherwise, it's a disinfectant.

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Quite possibly the worst advice ever. NEVER MIX ACIDS (like vinegar) WITH BLEACH!!! You could potentially liberate chlorine gas which, even in small doses, is quite LETHAL!

For that matter, don't mix bleach with anything other than water.

285 gallons of beer using bleach and water as a sanitizer, rinsed with 135 degree tap water and narry a bad sip in the bunch.

No "ignorance" in this brewshop.

Oh...and I insist on secondary conitioning...

The reason you shouldn't use hot water is because it releases chlorine gas.
Not because it stops it working.
It will still work.

We're turned a corner, gents.

Bleach (hot) vs Bleach (cold) is the new Bleach argument.

I got inspired after the bleach + acid part of this post. Here's why you should NEVER do it:

[youtube]cLDgA0aCjDA[/youtube]

Fellas, that's just a few tablespoons of household bleach and a strong acid. Note the greenish swirls of CHLORINE GAS. Just that amount is enough to kill if you were to take a deep breath over top of the flask. I wore protective gear (respirator) and did this outside for a reason...

Yuri_Rage said:

Note...I wore protective gear and did this outside for a reason...

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Like when you do plasma cutting.

Actually, Charlie Talley (inventor of starsan) said in a radio interview that mixing 1 ounce of bleach and 1 ounce of vinegar in 5 gallons of water is a more effective sanitizer than bleach alone. I assume he knows what he is talking about since he has worked as a professional chemist in this area for decades.

I'm not taking sides on the issue (I use starsan, not bleach), but he did say it, and this is where a lot of homebrewers got this nugget of info from.

The complete interview is here (scroll down to the bottom, its the March 29, 2007 show): http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio

orfy said:

Like when you do plasma cutting.

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I also stood upwind, left the scene for a few minutes after shooting the video, then used the hose you can see nearby to flush the flask and flood the surrounding concrete with water.

I may take a few chances on occasion, but not with **** like this...

Yuri_Rage said:

Quite possibly the worst advice ever. NEVER MIX ACIDS (like vinegar) WITH BLEACH!!! You could potentially liberate chlorine gas which, even in small doses, is quite LETHAL!

For that matter, don't mix bleach with anything other than water.

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If done properly, it increases the sanitizing power of bleach. And yes, as I mentioned, you should never mix bleach and vinegar directly, but rather mix one with water then the other to the diluted mixture.

Recommendation of the American Society of Microbiology

brloomis said:

...mixing 1 ounce of bleach and 1 ounce of vinegar in 5 gallons of water is a more effective sanitizer than bleach alone...

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This seems more like it.

Yuri_Rage said:

Quite possibly the worst advice ever. NEVER MIX ACIDS (like vinegar) WITH BLEACH!!! You could potentially liberate chlorine gas which, even in small doses, is quite LETHAL!...

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I don't think I've read anyone on this thread suggesting pure bleach + pure acid.

Even the srm775 who brought up the idea suggested "Mix bleach into water, then add vinegar (not sure of the portions, and never bleach and vinegar directly together)"

srm775 said:

If done properly, it increases the sanitizing power of bleach. And yes, as I mentioned, you should never mix bleach and vinegar directly, but rather mix one with water then the other to the diluted mixture.

Recommendation of the American Society of Microbiology

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Its the part about doing it properly that homebrewers need to pay attention to. Yuri's video is a good example of not doing it properly.

Yuri_Rage said:

I got inspired after the bleach + acid part of this post. Here's why you should NEVER do it:

Fellas, that's just a few tablespoons of household bleach and a strong acid. Note the greenish swirls of CHLORINE GAS. Just that amount is enough to kill if you were to take a deep breath over top of the flask. I wore protective gear (respirator) and did this outside for a reason...

Click to expand...

Sure, Mr. Lab geek just prattles on with his lecture while Mr. TIG welding, plasma cutting, rock-star with cooler toys than anyone gets a video up on youtube.

No, I'm not jealous... really, I swear.

Good show Yuri. What did you throw in? I assume you know enough not to do that with ammonia? (= chlorine gas + other toxic gasses + likely explosion... and not just the boil over kind, but full on exothermic explosion.)
So, are we making a strong enough case for iodophor or StarSan?

srm775 said:

Recommendation of the American Society of Microbiology

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They recommend 1 cup of bleach to 1 gallon of water followed by 1 cup of vinegar. That still seems like a pretty potent mix to me, and I'm not so sure it's a good idea for household use, especially without some really good ventilation. Also, that mix could be considered (depending on the application) a sterilizer rather than a sanitizer since it killed all of the microbes it contacted during the lab study.

Ultimately, we're interested in keeping things clean, not sterile. The best thing you can do for your beer is simply to clean up after yourself. Cleaning and rinsing everything thoroughly is about 99% of brewing sanitation. The sanitizer just adds a little extra insurance. Heavy duty chemicals and concoctions really aren't necessary.

I usually don't get too involved in the "should I use bleach" arguments, but this one seemed a little dangerous. Personally, I like a spray bottle full of Star San to help with brew day sanitation.

Oh...and for those who are wondering, that stuff I used in the video was "Wonder Gel" - a commercially available chemical blend that I use for pickling stainless steel. It's mostly a strong nitric acid solution.

EDIT:
My apologies for overreacting a bit earlier. I just don't want anybody to get hurt in the name of homebrew.

I agree with this woman's take on it.
http://chemistry.about.com/b/a/257822.htm

Yuri_Rage said:

...Ultimately, we're interested in keeping things clean, not sterile. The best thing you can do for your beer is simply to clean up after yourself. Cleaning and rinsing everything thoroughly is about 99% of brewing sanitation...

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Exactly my take. Fermenting beer seems to be pretty hardy stuff.

I hate reading that womeone dumped a batch bcause they "suspected" it was infected...yet they always prelude the story with "I'm fanatical about sanitation...".

I can testify that hot water does NOT decompose bleach in a short interval of time. I used to own a pressure washing company and hot bleach (185*) is MUCH more effective at destroying organic matter than room temperature bleach.

As for the acids and bases in a solution (like 1 cup to 5 gallons): Ionic compounds in a low concentration solution react very differently than they do when mixed directly in high concentrations.

Hmmmm.... Bleach and Vinegar.......Why would I even consider such a thing?

Bleach doesn't do a satisfactory job by it's self???

I would never put vinegar near beer. Chips yes. Beer no.

Yuri_Rage said:

Ultimately, we're interested in keeping things clean, not sterile. The best thing you can do for your beer is simply to clean up after yourself. Cleaning and rinsing everything thoroughly is about 99% of brewing sanitation. The sanitizer just adds a little extra insurance. Heavy duty chemicals and concoctions really aren't necessary.

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I agree completely. I don't, nor didn't, recommend anyone to do anything they are not 100% comfortable with. And more often than not, I will simply tell people that the best cleaning agent is to clean up after yourself quickly (whether it's rinsing bottles right away, cleaning kegs as soon as they're empty or rinsing carboys right away) and I, for the most part don't use anything stronger that very hot water and iodophor or star san.

Bobby_M said:

Or just buy a very inexpensive no rinse sanitizer and be done with it.

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That's just waaaaay to easy...

brloomis said:

Actually, Charlie Talley (inventor of starsan) said in a radio interview that mixing 1 ounce of bleach and 1 ounce of vinegar in 5 gallons of water is a more effective sanitizer than bleach alone. I assume he knows what he is talking about since he has worked as a professional chemist in this area for decades.

I'm not taking sides on the issue (I use starsan, not bleach), but he did say it, and this is where a lot of homebrewers got this nugget of info from.

The complete interview is here (scroll down to the bottom, its the March 29, 2007 show): http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio

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If you listen to this interview you will find that the reason for this recommendation is if you use "cheap" bleach as the pH is too high and the concentration of hypochlorite and hypochlorous acid (the bug killing compounds) is too low. If you use a "good" bleach it will have a greenish yellow tinge and needs no acid to make it effective. Here is a link that gives an overview of bleach as a sanitizer in the food industry: http://osuextra.okstate.edu/pdfs/FAPC-116web.pdf

"Sure, Mr. Lab geek just prattles on with his lecture while Mr. TIG welding, plasma cutting, rock-star with cooler toys than anyone gets a video up on youtube. "

That's too funny. Reading that I pictured Mr. Wizard (or some old dude in a lab coat) versus Bill Nye the Science Guy.

OK, that's all well and good, but what temperature should my pee be when I sanitize with it?

Is that no rinse?

I thought it had to be a virgin's pee, or is that an old wives tale?
(Besides, collecting virgin pee can be difficult. Aren't those mythical creatures hard to find?)

srm775 said:

I've actually read that bleach on it's own isn't a sanitizer. In order to make it a sanitizer, you need to lower the PH with vinegar. Mix bleach into water, then add vinegar (not sure of the portions, and never bleach and vinegar directly together) to lower the PH, in order to make it a sanitizer. Otherwise, it's a disinfectant.

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You should go back to where you read that and immediately debunk that myth. This advise will hurt someone.

JavaBeans said:

You should go back to where you read that and immediately debunk that myth. This advise will hurt someone.

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Actually, its OK to do it in your basement, but only while boiling wort on your 250K BTU Banjo burner. See, the blanket of CO produced by the burner acts as a protective barrier that traps and neutralizes the noxious gasses produced by mixing vinegar and bleach. UNLESS you are boiling in an aluminum pot, in which case the copious amounts of ALZ-HMR-4 ions produced by aluminum actually INCREASE its deadly effects by a factor of 1 billion. IF THIS SHOULD HAPPEN TO YOU, immediately throw away all your plastic buckets, switch to dry yeast, and pee on everything else. All of this is absolutely true because I heard it from the guy who sold me a legal keg for my new fly sparging set up who heard it on the god damn Jamil Z show.

brloomis said:

Actually, its OK to do it in your basement, but only while boiling wort on your 250K BTU Banjo burner. See, the blanket of CO produced by the burner acts as a protective barrier that traps and neutralizes the noxious gasses produced by mixing vinegar and bleach. UNLESS you are boiling in an aluminum pot, in which case the copious amounts of ALZ-HMR-4 ions produced by aluminum actually INCREASE its deadly effects by a factor of 1 billion. IF THIS SHOULD HAPPEN TO YOU, immediately throw away all your plastic buckets, switch to dry yeast, and pee on everything else. All of this is absolutely true because I heard it from the guy who sold me a legal keg for my new fly sparging set up who heard it on the god damn Jamil Z show.

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LOL! Where's the dead horse emoticon when you need it.

It's starting to get OT. Are we done?

olllllo said:

It's starting to get OT. Are we done?

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Um, yes.

Ibtl!


Omgbbq

JavaBeans said:

You should go back to where you read that and immediately debunk that myth. This advise will hurt someone.

Click to expand...

While adding acids to bases (particularly those that liberate chlorine gas) can be dangerous, that does not mean that it is always dangerous under all circumstances. Without getting into the chemistry of why, suffice it to say that a 0.06% solution of bleach and a 5.5% solution of bleach have entirely different reactions in the presence of an acidic compound.

A similar example of adding acids to CaHClO is a typical residential swimming pool. Muratic Acid and Calcium Hypochlorite are both commonly added to maintain water balance. Despite both chemicals being present in solution simultaneously, no dangerous Cl2 cloud forms over the pool.

As for debunking the myth, you'd better start with the EPA and the American Society for Microbiology:
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/bleachfactsheet.htm
http://www.asm.org/ASM/files/LeftMarginHeaderList/DOWNLOADFILENAME/000000001961/miner.pdf

Summary of those pages
Use of bleach for decontamination: A bleach solution <...> was prepared by mixing:
o one part bleach (6.00 percent)
o one part white vinegar, and
o eight parts water.
Super Stealth Mode IBTL