Blue Moon Clone

My previous attemp was this:
4.5# white wheat malt
4.5# 2 row
1# crystal 10L
1/4# crystal 40L
2# Flaked oats (Mashed)
1/2# rice hulls

It came out very nice, color was a match to the original. Too thin though.
I now tried to use only one crystal malt, for color and some residual stweetness.
Removed the rice hulls, added some carapils for head improvement and boiled some oats instead of mashing it.
Same yeast than before.

Here's how it looks right now, nice krausen, going strong.
Look the huge trub on the bottom from the oats
Hope it compacts further after fermentation is done so I can get the beer out without that.

I happened to stumble across a recipe that has
Everything except water amounts.

Umm....what?

One's water volume needs depend on your system/ process [equipment loss, space under your false bottom, boil-off rate, grain absorption, whether you want extra wort to freeze for starters, etc.]
Just punch it into beersmith or something & it will calc it for you.

Scheele11 care to post the recipe?

I have a few newb questions. I am wanting to brew this up in a few weeks. Are you guy just adding the orange peel and coriander to the boil and then straining it out, or are you putting it in bags like the hops? Also, are you crushing the coriander seeds or just adding them just as they come (round)?

crush/ crack coriander & toss in w/ peel.

if your going for the blue moon taste skip the peel and use 1/2 of orange extract

The original recipe used pre-ground coriander and pre-ground dried Valencia (sweet) orange peel.

Getting the ratio of spices correct is the hardest part. It helps to have a starting point and something that can be consistently replicated as you try to dial in the recipe to suit your tastes.

I would not suggest cracking your own coriander as it would be very hard to duplicate the exact crack the next time you brewed it. Same thing with zesting your own orange peel.

Wayne1 said:

The original recipe used pre-ground coriander and pre-ground dried Valencia (sweet) orange peel.

Getting the ratio of spices correct is the hardest part. It helps to have a starting point and something that can be consistently replicated as you try to dial in the recipe to suit your tastes.

I would not suggest cracking your own coriander as it would be very hard to duplicate the exact crack the next time you brewed it. Same thing with zesting your own orange peel.

Click to expand...

Wayne1, I don't have 1/10th of the brewing knowledge that you do, but I gotta ask a question about your coriander comment. Each and every time that I used the 'ground coriander' from the grocery store in my wits, I got zero orange taste/smell. I purchased a couple pounds of coriander seeds online and I crack them myself in my spice grinder and voila, orange! I find that when I use my spice grinder (a dedicated spce-only Krups coffee grinder) I get a very consistent, orange-y spice each and every time. I just don't get that from the pre-ground corainder from the store.

Also, what do you think about how this recipe thread is going? Just curious.

i to bought pre ground corriander and got nothing out of it. probable cause it was cracked a long time ago. i think next time its a coffee ginder

midfielder5 said:

crush/ crack coriander & toss in w/ peel.

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I'm guessing this all goes in a mulsin bag......or it is strained out before fermentation?

mccabedoug said:

Wayne1, I don't have 1/10th of the brewing knowledge that you do, but I gotta ask a question about your coriander comment. Each and every time that I used the 'ground coriander' from the grocery store in my wits, I got zero orange taste/smell. I purchased a couple pounds of coriander seeds online and I crack them myself in my spice grinder and voila, orange! I find that when I use my spice grinder (a dedicated spce-only Krups coffee grinder) I get a very consistent, orange-y spice each and every time. I just don't get that from the pre-ground corainder from the store.

Also, what do you think about how this recipe thread is going? Just curious.

Click to expand...

Allow me to go into a bit more detail on my comments. I will agree with your statements that grocery store spices will not give the flavor of fresh ground. My suggestion of pre-ground is to assure consistency. When I purchased the pre-ground spices, they were freshly ground by the vendor. If possible, I would suggest trying to find a spice shop that sells freshly ground spices to use for all your spice needs. In Denver, there is a small chain called Savory Spice. They grind all their spices on a weekly basis. This way you will be sure of the consistency of the grind.

I am sure you can get good grinds from your spice mill. If someone does not own a spice mill, then the best bet would be to buy pre-ground from a specialty shop, rather than the grocery store.

tremec77,

No need to bag anything. Just throw the ground spices in the kettle at the suggested times. If some of the spices get transferred with the wort to the fermenter, no big deal. They will all settle out eventually.

I am very happy with how the thread has progressed. People have brewed the original recipe I posted and are now changing things a little at a time to bring it closer to their perception of what Blue Moon is today.

Wayne1 said:

tremec77,

No need to bag anything. Just throw the ground spices in the kettle at the suggested times. If some of the spices get transferred with the wort to the fermenter, no big deal. They will all settle out eventually.

Click to expand...

Thanks for clearing that up Wayne. I can't wait to get started with this brew!

I just purchased the "American Wheat" kit from Homebrewers.com http://www.homebrewers.com/product/ALP1004/American-Wheat-Beer-Kit.html and I'm thinking of just using that kit and then adding sweet orange peel and coriander to that. I know it isn't going to be a Blue Moon clone but I thought it might be a good "sweet" wheat beer. Anyone have any thoughts on what I can expect from this brew?

tre: your kit uses diff yeast, hops, malt & some unspecified kind of specialty grains.
I'd do it as is, then brew this one as is.
cheers.

midfielder5 said:

tre: your kit uses diff yeast, hops, malt & some unspecified kind of specialty grains.
I'd do it as is, then brew this one as is.
cheers.

Click to expand...

Yeah, i figured it wouldn't be much like BM but I thought I might experiment and add the orange peel and coriander just to see what I get. I am definitely going to try the correct recipe for a true BM in the next month or so.

Thanks to OP and Wayne1!

I have tinkered with a couple different versions of Blue Moon clone and then found Wayne1's recipe...I brewed this about a month ago and WOW!....amazing beer. I just brewed another 10 gallons to keep up with demand. Never have I had kegs disappear so fast.

Truth be told, and I know I will catch shi* for this....I accidently racked my first version of this to a keg at two weeks (I forgot to mark the carboy...and thought I was pulling an American week that was three weeks old). And even then...after about 4 days on CO2...this was a phenomenal beer.

Prost!

This is a fantastic thread!!!

I know Wayne1's recipe is an AG recipe but I have been attempting to formulate an extract brew of Wayne1's recipe because my lovely wife has requested a blue moon clone sort of beer for after the baby is born in April. I am currently in the works of building an AG system with kegs etc. but not quite there yet. So...here is what I have come up with using Wayne's 50% Pale Malt, 40% Wheat Malt and 10% Flaked or Rolled Oats ratio for Blue Moon.

(2) 3.3lb cans of Muntons Wheat Extract (this is 55% Wheat and 45% Barley Malt)
(1) 1.4lb can of Alexander's Pale Malt "Kicker"
(1) 1 lb bag of Flaked Oats

This should give me a ratio of:
4.37lbs Barley Malt (48.5%)
3.63lbs Wheat (40.3%)
1 lb Flaked Oats (11%)

Steep Oats for 20 min at about 155 degrees.
-->BOIL
Add Extracts
-->BOIL
Add 1 oz Hallertauer hops (60 min)
Add 1 oz ground Coriander seeds (10 min)
Add 1/3 oz. Valencia Orange Peel (5 min)

Then finish it off with a California Ale Yeast (WL0001)

I was going to use the extract recipe which calls for Orange Blosson Honey but Wayne said there is NO HONEY in Blue Moon so...After lots of calculations and digging around looking at different malts etc. This is what I came up with!

Thoughts??

I will let you all know how it turns out and how it is progressing as soon as I brew it (probably this week or this weekend)

few problems with this.
1. 1 oz of FRESH ground corriander will be overpowering. Try using 1/4 to 3/8oz.
2. No one on this form has gotten anywhere close to the orange taste of the original using orange peel (fresh, dried, or ground). Which in my opinion is the best part abut blue moon. Using 1/2 oz of orange extract late in the secondary will get you much closer.
3. The mouth feel is very thin even with mashing 2 lbs of oats. Nilo tried 1/2 lb boiled oats and it was very think. He suggested 1/4 lb boiled to get that nice thick mouth feel.

Welcome to thread. some of us on here have been very dedicated to getting the clone perfect so please post your results which will help us get 1 step closer

Adding to my experience with boiling 1/2lb of oats.
I just bottled that batch and although the fermenter was full of a slimy trub when fermenting, after fermentation resumed it compacted and I was able to rack the beer off and bottle without much problem (pic below).
And it didn't taste too thick at that point (65F).
I'll have to wait after bottle conditioning, cool it and try it again before I can make my final assessment.

Wayne1 said:

You are pretty darn close.

You might want to go up as high as 2.25 oz of coriander and 0.8 oz of orange peel.

For 15 bbls I used 90 oz of coriander and 32 oz of orange peel.

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Hi ekjohns:

I have to refer to Wayne's original ratios that work out to approx 0.75oz of Corriander and 0.26 oz of Sweet Valencia Orange Peel for a 5.25 gal batch. Granted to scale down to a 5 gal batch from what Wayne was brewing is not always linear but the ratios start there for a 5 Gal batch. I did try up to 1.25 oz of Corriander and I did not find the beer to be overly spiced.

What Wayne has suggested repeatedly is to start at this ratio and set yourself a baseline taste to determine how each of you can make your second batch more to your liking from the baseline. (I have not used less than 0.5 oz Corriander in any batches yet)

My current batch is finishing fermenting now and ready to carb this weekend. I used your suggestion of Orange Extract and I used 4 TBLS out of a 2 OZ bottle at the end of boil which is less than 0.5 oz. My initial smell reaction was that the orange aroma was too strong so I have yet to concur about the orange extract addition. Two weeks will tell me more but in this batch I used 0.5 oz of Corriander, 0.25 oz of Valencia Orange Peel as well as the orange extract.

Each person will most likely be satisfied with different levels of flavor. My suggestion for new brewers is to echo Wayne to start with the 3:1 ratio ground corriander to ground Valencia Orange Peel and then compare this to the real thing and then go start some modifications.

BBB

BeerBaronBob said:

I used 4 TBLS out of a 2 OZ bottle at the end of boil which is less than 0.5 oz.

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Was this a 10 gallon batch because 4 TBLS is 2oz, and 4 tsp is 2/3 oz. Either way both are more than 1/2 oz.

BeerBaronBob said:

My initial smell reaction was that the orange aroma was too strong so I have yet to concur about the orange extract addition.

Click to expand...

The extract is very delicate and it will mellow quite a bit.

sorry 4 teaspoons not tablespoons orange extract and checking the bottle just about 0.5 fl oz out of what was a 2.8 fl oz bottle not 2 oz as I thought earlier.

Like Wayne said, scaling down from a 15BBL brewhouse can be a bit tricky but if I go off of his original recipe, he calls for 1 oz. Coriander and 1/3 oz Valencia Orange Peel (1 to 3 ratio). It looks like other have used this same ratio and some even more Coriander and VOP.

I would like to get this as close as possible and I like the idea of a starting point to tweak down the road.

1/4 to 3/8 oz of Coriander seems like it would not be enough...especially when referring to Wayne's recipe.

Also a quick question regarding the oats...did you treat the oats as a specialty grain and just steep them for 20 min or so? Nilo states boiled oats. How long did you boil them and did you strain them out at the end or is the slimy trub due to the boiled oats?

Any add'l thoughts or ideas would be great. Thanks a lot fellas!!

Well the nice thing about extract is if you brew with orange peel and dont get the flavor your looking for you can always at 1/4 oz at a time at kegging or bottling untill you get it where you want it

BBB: the orange flavor will prob mellow out after its aged a few weeks. Orange flavoring is very delicate. Hence why fresh zested orange is always better than dired

I boiled 1/2lb oat flakes in a muslin bag for the whole duration of the boil (60min).
I once did a rye ale and boiled the rye flakes and didn't use a muslin bag, and that was a nightmare to separate that when transferring to the fermenter.

nilo said:

I boiled 1/2lb oat flakes in a muslin bag for the whole duration of the boil (60min).
I once did a rye ale and boiled the rye flakes and didn't use a muslin bag, and that was a nightmare to separate that when transferring to the fermenter.

Click to expand...

Nilo, I'm using Wayne's recipe and following your advice on small changes. Are you saying to add the oats to the mash but keep 1/4oz out in order to boil in the wort?

Just boil 1/4lb oat flakes for last 15-20min of boil. Skip using it in the mash. I don't think it does anything in the mash other than add some starch for the enzymes to covert. You can add a little more base malt if you want to keep your OG the same.

Here are the details. It fermented for 4 weeks and now its carbonating in the keg. It seems is a bit flavorless and thin. Color seems ok but my first impression from drinking from the hydrometer sample is it needs more body and flavor.

Hopefully with all these details someone can suggest some changes to the recipie for round 2....

Mash grains
Pale Malt 2 row Briess 4.75 lb
White Wheat Malt Briess 3.75lb
Flaked Oats 1.00lb

Boil additions
Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 1.0 oz 90 min
Ground Corriander 0.10 oz 10 min
Orange Peel Sweet 0.50 oz 5 min

Wyeast 1056 American Ale (used a starter to bump yeast count)

Mashed for 80 min at 150 degrees
Mash out 170 for 10 min

Fly sparged until I had 7.0 gallons

Efficency is at 73%

90 Min boil
Total volume to ferment 5 gal

Chilled with wort chiller to 68 degrees and pitched yeast

OG 1.052
FG 1.010

Fermenter in my fermentation tank 68 degrees

Any ideas?

imperialipa said:

Here are the details. It fermented for 4 weeks and now its carbonating in the keg. It seems is a bit flavorless and thin. Color seems ok but my first impression from drinking from the hydrometer sample is it needs more body and flavor.

Hopefully with all these details someone can suggest some changes to the recipie for round 2....

Mash grains
Pale Malt 2 row Briess 4.75 lb
White Wheat Malt Briess 3.75lb
Flaked Oats 1.00lb

Boil additions
Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 1.0 oz 90 min
Ground Corriander 0.10 oz 10 min
Orange Peel Sweet 0.50 oz 5 min

Wyeast 1056 American Ale (used a starter to bump yeast count)

Mashed for 80 min at 150 degrees
Mash out 170 for 10 min

Fly sparged until I had 7.0 gallons

Efficency is at 73%

90 Min boil

OG 1.052
FG 1.010

Fermenter in my fermentation tank 68 degrees

Any ideas?

Click to expand...

Imperial IPA,

How much are you making here? I am guessing a 5 gallon batch. If so, your grain bill seems to be in line but it looks like you reversed the coriander and orange peel ratio. According to Wayne, The ratio of Coriander to Orange peel should be 3 to 1. We just brewed a 5 gallon batch of this last night and used 1 oz. ground coriander (30 grams) and 1/3 oz. Valencia Orange Peel (10 grams). We steeped a 1/2 pound of flaked/rolled oats for 20 min at about 160 degrees and boiled the other 1/2 pound for the entire 60 min. An oz. of Hallertauer leaf hops were added at 60 min, Coriander tossed in at 10 min and the VOP at 5 min. Crashed temp to 70 degrees in about 17 min and it tasted heavenly!! I was very impressed at how smooth this unfermented wort was. We also ate a bit of the Oats after we pulled them from the kettle and they were quite interesting. A malty, mildly hoppy oatmeal. Suprisingly tasty...

We used (2) 3.3 lb cans of Muntons Wheat Malt Extract and (1) 1.4 lb can of Alexanders Pale Malt Kicker and 1 lb of oats used as described above.

We then topped it off with a White Labs WL001 California Ale Yeast.

We ended up with an O.G. of 1.052.

I am extremely excited to taste this after its all fermented and carb'd. This should be a beer that won't last long at all. I plan on duplicating this recipe possibly this weekend.

Brew on Brewers!!!

imperialipa,

Thanks for brewing the recipe as written, for the most part.

GusWatab is correct in that you seemed to have reversed the amounts on the spices. The mash temp is also on the low end. While I was able to get very good results with the lower temps and mashing oats in the mash, it seems that in the smaller amounts being used by most homebrewers, a higher mash temperature seems to be needed to get similar results.

I hereby propose this recipe as an alternative:

6 lbs. Weyermann Vienna Malt
5 lbs. Weyermann Wheat Malt (pale)
1.25 lb Flaked Oats
0.5 Rice Hulls (pre-soaked in warm water)

Pre-heat mash tun with 4 gallons of 170F water.

Remove water from tun and re-heat to achieve 170F.

Mash in grains with 4 gallons of 170F water.

Allow to rest at 154-156F for 90 min.

Add 2.25 gallons of 198 F water to raise temp to 168F

Let mash rest at 168F for 10 min.

Recirculate (vorlauf) wort for 10 min. to clarify and establish grain filter bed.

Slowly sparge with 4.5 gallons of 168F water.

Collect roughly 8.3 gallons of water in kettle. (I try to take 45-60 min to get full volume)

Start boil as soon as wort covers bottom of kettle. Boil for 90 min after total volume is collected

Add 1.7 oz Hallertau (3%) pellets 30 min into the boil. (60 min boil left)

Add 1.25 oz fresh ground coriander (10 min boil left)

Add 0.3 oz Valencia Orange Peel (5 min boil left)

Turn kettle off and whirpool (if possible) to deposit trub in center of kettle. Draw off wort from side of kettle and chill as quickly as possible.

Ferment with Wyeast 1056, Safale US05, or White Labs WLP001 at 68F

With these amounts, assuming a 72% efficiency you should end up with 5.5 gallons in the fermenter @ 1.055 with IBU @15.6

This will give you a bit "bigger" beer with more mouthfeel. Feel free to experiment more with differing amounts of spices to get what does it for you.

I have never boiled oatmeal with the brew, but if it gives you what you perceive as the same flavor that Blue Moon has today, go for it.

Wayne1 said:

I hereby propose this recipe as an alternative:

6 lbs. Weyermann Vienna Malt
5 lbs. Weyermann Wheat Malt
1.25 lb Flaked Oats
0.5 Rice Hulls (pre-soaked in warm water)

Mash 154-156 for 90 min.

Sparge and collect roughly 8 gallons of water in kettle.

Start boil. Boil for 90 min total.

Add 1.7 oz Hallertau (3%) pellets 30 min into the boil. (60 min boil left)

Add 1.25 tsp fresh ground coriander (10 min boil left)

Add 0.3 tsp Valencia Orange Peel (5 min boil left)

Click to expand...

HI Wayne, I guess I have to ask again about your note above... 1.25 tsp is quite a bit less than 1.25 oz. Are you saying that the spice amounts you used in your 15bbl batch were too much and you have scaled it back or is the corriander amount supposed to be 1.25 oz instead of tsp.?

The batch I have ready to carb this weekend has a little less Weyermann Vienna and I used Rahr White Wheat instead of the Weyermann which is a dark wheat. I also used a little Carapils and Crystal 40 and my OG was 1.055 at 73% mash eff. Im anxious to try this with the Weyermann Vienna.

Thanks for catching that BeerBaronBob.

I guess this was another transcription error. When I first mentioned amounts of spices, I was moving from a brewsheet for 15 bbls to 5 gallons. I made a mistake and used tsp instead of oz. I think that using these numbers, you might actually get closer to the flavor you want.

I just edited the recipe I posted earlier today.

Feel free to castigate me with vengeance

For those who have more experience brewing this beer, lately, how do those spice amounts sound to you?

Thanks for the advice!!!

Just so I'm understanding correctly for the spices....

1.25 OZ (not TSP) of fresh ground corriander
0.3 OZ (not TSP) of Velancia dried orange peel

i gave up on orange peel all together. I tried everything from ground sweet orange peel, fresh zesting 3 large oranges. I even once tried half a jar of orange marmalade with 2 fresh zested oranges at flame out and i never got orange flavor at all. If anything i got bitter beer from the zesting (and i was SUPER careful not to get any pith). It wasnt till i went with extract did i get what i want. I remember listening to some pro brewer talking about citrus oils and they said that they are so delicate the are very hard to work with. He went on to say that if you zested an orange the flavor would be amazing for an hour. Let it sit for 24 hours in the fridge and try it again and its rancid. Now if you take that orange peel dry it and let it sit in a bag for 2 months on a shelf then put it in your beer your not going to get much orange. I went as far as sucking on some of the dried orange peel and it tasted like sh*t to me.

edit - I mean no disrespect to anyone in this comment just personal fustration i have experienced with orange peel

imperialipa,

Correct. My measurements on spices were meant to be by weight in ounces.

ekjohns,

I appreciate your frustration with spices. While I had no problems with the dried ground spices I was using at the time, it appears to be very difficult to find an equivalent. If you are happy using the orange extract, more power to you. Others may find differently.

wayne1 you were also buying from spice shops which im sure helps a lot. Here in ohio the best i got is penskeys spices and they dont seem to be great at moving product so stuff sits around for awhile. I think what this means is i need to move to cali. and if your going to buy spices find a place that thats all they do