But not chloramines....
It does boil off, just takes longer. SF water works says it takes 20 minutes in their city water.
But not chloramines....
It does boil off, just takes longer. SF water works says it takes 20 minutes in their city water.
No, that's not so. It's more like hours and hours, just to get to a half-life. In practical terms, chloramines do not boil off. Chlorine does, if the entire amount of water is boiled and the brew is not topped off with unboiled water.
Do you have a source for this information that is not the sketchy document hosted on hbd.org?
The SF waterwork website says it takes twenty minutes to boil chloramine off.
Going to add now http://www.phila.gov/water/fact_sheets.html
Says it takes 5 minutes of boiling to remove half of chloramine:
Does boiling improve the taste of tap water? It is unlikely that you will notice any taste difference. The primary reason for the taste of tap water is the chloramine (chlorine) that is in the water. This gives the water a slight chlorine taste. The chloramine is there to maintain the freshness of the water throughout the City. Chloramine is used because it is persistent. Boiling water for five minutes might only reduce the chloramine level by half. It will not get rid of the chloramine. Placing the water in the refrigerator in a water jug will help to reduce the chlorine taste since colder water has a less noticeable taste.
http://www.chloramine.org/chloraminefacts.htm
Chloramine isn't chlorine. It's a combo of ammonia AND chlorine that are bonded. You can beat the chlorine chain, but are left with the still nasty ammonia side of the chain.
And your 'half-life'... meaning half of it can be removed: 5 minutes.
Yes, I'm incredibly familiar with the half-life concept, as medications involve calculating half lifes.
The thing with removing chloramine is that you don't want HALF of it, or a quarter of it, or an eight of it, or any bit of it left. It has a very low taste threshold in beer. It would take hours and hours to remove enough to not impact the flavor.
OR. You can add a crushed campden tablet (potassium metabisulfate) to 20 gallons of water, stir it. And it will interact with the chloramine and give you usable water in moments.
Anyway, one of the signs of chlorine or chloramine in brewing water is a burnt-cloves kind of flavor, like band-aids would taste if you tasted them.
Do you need to adjust the campden amount for less water? Say a 5 gallon batch. Guess I should say 7 gallons or so to start.
Yes. Cut the tablet in half, or quarter, or whatever for your volume.
Ok everyone calm down... This web page should shed light on some of this...
http://hbd.org/ajdelange/Brewing_articles/BT_Chlorine.pdf
It states that the half life is somewhere around 26.6 mins but it would have to undergo many half lives to be completely removed... So if you do two half lives then there's still 1/4th of the chloramine in it. So to completely remove it then yes it would take hours
Ok everyone calm down... This web page should shed light on some of this...
http://hbd.org/ajdelange/Brewing_articles/BT_Chlorine.pdf
It states that the half life is somewhere around 26.6 mins but it would have to undergo many half lives to be completely removed... So if you do two half lives then there's still 1/4th of the chloramine in it. So to completely remove it then yes it would take hours
That is the dated document from the 90's.... In contrast, multiple .gov and city water websites are saying that it takes 5 minutes to remove half of chloramine (and 5 minutes for another 50% reduction, etc) or approximately 20 minutes to remove most of chloramines. I don't understand why you guys can't accept that.
Well, "dated" but extensive data, proven scientifically vs. "my water company says" is really not making it easy to accept. I won't even get into the probable health issues dealing with chloramine, which your water company will deny but you can do your own research. Just because your water company tells you "boil 20 minutes to remove most of the chloramines" doesn't make it correct, nor does it make it scientifically proven.
Perhaps this threadjacking can end now, and we could argue this point in the "brew science" forum where the water chemistry experts hang out? This long argumentative discussion has no place in the "beginner's forum" and we are getting nowhere.
Thanks.
I don't think it's fair you make a counter argument and then say that's it, move it along, especially since you are a moderator--you are setting me up. I don't think it's fair you are appealing to emotions instead of facts "my water company" vs "science". There is more practical science in a water company than in an unmarked badly written document hosted on a beer website. The document isn't science, it's an anonymous paper based on other papers. No one has to vouch for its authenticity.
Anyway, cheers. I'm off to play.
Yeah. I asked my water companies chemist whether or not we used chlorine or chloramine. He said chloramine. I asked how to get rid of it for brewing purposes. He said sodium or potassium metabisulfite is the only way. Otherwise any phenols produced during the brewing process would bond with the chloramines.
^^ this. You can also use a carbon catalyst filter but form my discussions with people smarter than me, it has to be exposed to the filter too long to have significant impact in real-world usage.
Going to add now http://www.phila.gov/water/fact_sheets.html
Says it takes 5 minutes of boiling to remove half of chloramine:
Does boiling improve the taste of tap water? It is unlikely that you will notice any taste difference. The primary reason for the taste of tap water is the chloramine (chlorine) that is in the water. This gives the water a slight chlorine taste. The chloramine is there to maintain the freshness of the water throughout the City. Chloramine is used because it is persistent. Boiling water for five minutes might only reduce the chloramine level by half. It will not get rid of the chloramine. Placing the water in the refrigerator in a water jug will help to reduce the chlorine taste since colder water has a less noticeable taste.
Did this move to the brewing science area?
FYI - After a very quick search on google I found a website from a Hawaiian county which claims that boiling is not a practical method of removing chloramines, and a paper from "The Scottish Centre for infection and Environmental Health" Titled "Chemicals in Drinking Water: Chloramines" which states that Chloramines can be removed from water using activated carbon with low flow rates (5 to 10 minutes contact time), followed by residual ammonia adsoption using mineral zeolite media. The use of reducing agents such as sodium sulfite, sodium bisulfite, sodium thiosulfite, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C) also removes monochromatic from water. Boiling and aeration are ineffective methods for monochloramine removal.
For the life of me, I can't understand people's avoidance of using campden. I see all kinds of bad info on this site about how to get rid of chlorine/chloramine when it can be eliminated with a 1/4 tab per 5 gals of water. I use it in every batch.
I just went and looked at the price tag on my campden tablets. It was $1.90 for 50 tabs.
I think $.08 per batch is pretty damned good insurance against band-aid beer.
The document isn't science,
Hardly. It was published in Brewing Techniques with my name plainly attached. It appears on my website and sites that mirror it with my name next to it.it's an anonymous paper...
...based on other papers.
I do.No one has to vouch for its authenticity.
Did this move to the brewing science area?
FYI - After a very quick search on google I found a website from a Hawaiian county which claims that boiling is not a practical method of removing chloramines, and a paper from "The Scottish Centre for infection and Environmental Health" Titled "Chemicals in Drinking Water: Chloramines" which states that Chloramines can be removed from water using activated carbon with low flow rates (5 to 10 minutes contact time), followed by residual ammonia adsoption using mineral zeolite media. The use of reducing agents such as sodium sulfite, sodium bisulfite, sodium thiosulfite, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C) also removes monochromatic from water. Boiling and aeration are ineffective methods for monochloramine removal.
I was very clear that I was only suggesting that there are many sources (more recent, authoritative sources) that claim chloramine can be removed in minutes. But look at these responses. It's as if I shot their mommas! Hilarious.
I was very clear that I was only suggesting that there are many sources (more recent, authoritative sources) that claim chloramine can be removed in minutes. But look at these responses. It's as if I shot their mommas! Hilarious.
How much do you use? I have some of this from Puritan's pride but wasn't sure on the dosage.For what it's worth, I use vitamin C to treat my water instead of campden tablets. I purchased a big bottle of powdered vitamin C (probably a lifetime supply) for a couple bucks online.
How much do you use? I have some of this from Puritan's pride but wasn't sure on the dosage.
Is that correct? That's .08 gram per 5 gallons. That is a tiny amount.16mg per gallon of water for typical water treatment concentrations.
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