Importance of water profile

Hey all,

I'm doing my first all grain next weekend, just got my new kettle and finished my mash tun. I've got two recipes I'm choosing from, and probably won't really decide until later this week. Was going for BierMuncher's Litehaus Wheat (I owe both my interest in craft beer and my start in homebrewing to Boulevard Wheat), or EdWort's Haus Pale Ale. I've been looking at my water profile, and trying to figure out if these are going to turn out good or not. I've brewed about 8 extract batches, and most turned out with a similar off flavor, which I'm attributing to our tap water (believe me, I've spent plenty of time in other threads narrowing it down, the last couple have turned out pretty good). I know that my tap water has chloramines in it, so I'm planning on treating with a campden tablet, but other than that, I'm not really sure of the importance of messing with this. I downloaded Palmer's spreadsheet from the How to Brew website, but really not sure how to go about using it. Here are the minerals from my water report that he addresses, all in PPM:
Calcium-45
magnesium - 39
alkalinity as CaCO3 - 53
Sodium - 23
Chloride - 30
Sulfate - 241
Water pH - 8.36

Can I just use this and brew, or should I treat it with something? Is changing the water profile necessary, or is it something that will make my beer go from good to great?

dandw12786 said:

Hey all,

I'm doing my first all grain next weekend, just got my new kettle and finished my mash tun. I've got two recipes I'm choosing from, and probably won't really decide until later this week. Was going for BierMuncher's Litehaus Wheat (I owe both my interest in craft beer and my start in homebrewing to Boulevard Wheat), or EdWort's Haus Pale Ale. I've been looking at my water profile, and trying to figure out if these are going to turn out good or not. I've brewed about 8 extract batches, and most turned out with a similar off flavor, which I'm attributing to our tap water (believe me, I've spent plenty of time in other threads narrowing it down, the last couple have turned out pretty good). I know that my tap water has chloramines in it, so I'm planning on treating with a campden tablet, but other than that, I'm not really sure of the importance of messing with this. I downloaded Palmer's spreadsheet from the How to Brew website, but really not sure how to go about using it. Here are the minerals from my water report that he addresses, all in PPM:
Calcium-45
magnesium - 39
alkalinity as CaCO3 - 53
Sodium - 23
Chloride - 30
Sulfate - 241
Water pH - 8.36

Can I just use this and brew, or should I treat it with something? Is changing the water profile necessary, or is it something that will make my beer go from good to great?

Click to expand...

You have nice water! Except for the sulfate.....................Are you certain that is correct?

Actually yeah, there aren't many brewers around here, but the ones that are around have said that that's a big problem... I double checked it a few times because when I saw it I was really surprised... The 2009 water report had it at 212, but the preliminary one for this year had it at 241... 306 for the highest measured level. What's the best way to counteract that?

You could just make British ales!! Your sulfates pale in comparison to Burton on Trent water.

Look into diluting your water with RO/DI water. You could start with 50% dilution (or more) and see how that works for you. Then you can add back calcium via gypsum or calcium chloride, but of course I would go with calcium chloride (gypsum is calcium sulfate and will add back the sulfates you are trying to get rid of).

Sulfates will make the hop bitterness more pronounced. Meaning that a pale ale or ipa brewed with your water might make the hop bitterness a bit on the offensive side.

Regardless, I think you could start with a 50/50 dilution of your water and DI bought from the store. Add calcium chloride if you have it available to get your Ca concentration >50 ppm.

Thats probably why our first APA was terrible... I did some dilution later with distilled water and it got better, but the sulfate content is really high! I'll try diluting and calcium chloride, thanks. If anyone else has any advice, please chime in!

Wish I could help answer OP's question but I have the opposite going on. We have a whole house water filtration system with an RO tap as well. I use the regular water out of the kitchen sink (which is still pretty pure) instead of the RO faucet. How will my water affect the beer? Think I should consider adding anything since my water is going to be relatively "empty"? Thanks!

Bump

Yes, dilution is your solution to brewing fruition. The sulfates in that water are pretty high.

Be careful with Palmer's spreadsheet since it doesn't guide a brewer very well and there have been many a brew that have come out like soda water based on recommendations from that sheet.

Bru'n Water is another sheet that provides a little more hand holding to the brewer, but it requires that you take the time to read instructions and learn about brewing water chemistry. It includes a nice section on Water Knowledge. You can download it from the link in my signature.

Kai has a spreadsheet and a nice write up on pH over at basic brewing. I have not used it yet, but if you can get through his technical talk, it should help out.

I don't know what you'd do to decrease sulfate. I usually cut my water due to alkalinity anyway, so maybe that's the best option for sulfates.

Bumping the Chloride can help balance the hop flavor thing, but you still have to be within reason...

Homercidal said:

Kai has a spreadsheet and a nice write up on pH over at basic brewing. I have not used it yet, but if you can get through his technical talk, it should help out.

I don't know what you'd do to decrease sulfate. I usually cut my water due to alkalinity anyway, so maybe that's the best option for sulfates.

Bumping the Chloride can help balance the hop flavor thing, but you still have to be within reason...

Click to expand...

Nope, not even close. You can't add chloride to balance the overloaded sulfate in this water. The SO4/Cl ratio is ONLY useful when the concentrations of these ions are low to moderate. Generally, keeping both below 100 ppm is a good idea, but there are hoppy styles that benefit from higher sulfate. The chloride concentration should never exceed 100 ppm. I'm not sure where Palmer came up with the idea that a chloride level of 250 ppm was allowable, but its not. There is a lot of bad advice and half advice on the web and even in print. Be careful.

The only historic brewing water profile with a chloride content above 100 ppm is Dortmund (@130 ppm).

TH has developed a good spreadsheet to help too...

http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

I allow it to compensate for sparge water but make those additions to my boil kettle, not my sparge water (since they won't dissolve that well in the sparge water)

I've been toying with these spreadsheets, palmers isn't very user-friendly, but I really like the ez water calculator. Its looking like to get a decent balanced water profile, all I'm going to have to dilute my water with distilled at about 60-70%, then add some Calcium Chloride.

If I just make up 8 gallons, treat with campden and calcium chloride, can I use that for mash and sparge? That should work just fine, right?

Also, are salt additions really that small to make a big difference? 2 grams for like 8 gallons?

mabrungard said:

Nope, not even close. You can't add chloride to balance the overloaded sulfate in this water. The SO4/Cl ratio is ONLY useful when the concentrations of these ions are low to moderate. Generally, keeping both below 100 ppm is a good idea, but there are hoppy styles that benefit from higher sulfate. The chloride concentration should never exceed 100 ppm. I'm not sure where Palmer came up with the idea that a chloride level of 250 ppm was allowable, but its not. There is a lot of bad advice and half advice on the web and even in print. Be careful.

The only historic brewing water profile with a chloride content above 100 ppm is Dortmund (@130 ppm).

Click to expand...

Sure, that's why I said at the end, "...but your still have to be within reason."

I really think Kai's pages are worth reading. There is some very technical information there, but some of it is not too hard to understand and it can go along well with the various spreadsheets. I think I know of 3 spreadsheets out there now, and it's a tough subject to wrap your mind around, so Kai's information can maybe help with that.

dandw12786 said:

I've been toying with these spreadsheets, palmers isn't very user-friendly, but I really like the ez water calculator. Its looking like to get a decent balanced water profile, all I'm going to have to dilute my water with distilled at about 60-70%, then add some Calcium Chloride.

If I just make up 8 gallons, treat with campden and calcium chloride, can I use that for mash and sparge? That should work just fine, right?

Also, are salt additions really that small to make a big difference? 2 grams for like 8 gallons?

Click to expand...

EDIT: The tables did not come out looking too nice, sorry about that, ask if you need clarification....

0% 60% 70% <-- Dilutions, as in 60% RO/DI water, 0% is your tap
Ca 45 18 13.5
Mg 39 15.6 11.7
Alk 53 21.2 15.9
Na 23 9.2 6.9
Cl 30 12 9
SO4 241 96.4 72.3

You can basically ignore Alk (alkalinity) for this, but looking at the other ions....
With either dilution, your Ca conc. is too low, so you will need to add back CaCl2 to get a healthy fermentation (yeast like Ca, and it helps proteins flocculate...promoting hot break and the use of irish moss...in the boil).

Assuming the 8 gal of total water you are going to treat, I would add around either 3 or 4 g of CaCl2 to the 8 gal. Now there is a debate around whether CaCl2 is dihydate (containing water molecules) or not, but for what you need (brewing) we can estimate and be just fine (I calc. it is being pure CaCl2 just for a reference).

Here is the new water profile with 60% RO/DI dilution and the salt addition:

60% 3g 4g
Ca 18 54 66
Mg 15.6 15 15
Alk 21.2 --- ---
Na 9.2 9 9
Cl 12 75 96
SO4 96.4 96 96

Great water profile! The 3g gives you a 0.8 Cl/SO4 ratio, which is great for most hoppy beers, and the 4 g gives you a 1.0 Cl/SO4 ratio, which is a bit more rounded.

I'd say that that is a great place to start, and if you think your water is off after a couple of brews you can re-look into the salts. But remember, that these are fairly small salt additions and if done correctly, will not add a minerally taste to the water (so don't blame me if the beer tastes bad, blame the brewer!!).

Also, CaCl2 can be a PITA to dissolve in water, esp. water with a higher pH like yours. I would divide the salt additions between your mash water and sparge water. Add the mash proportion in with the grains at dough in. Add the sparge additions IN THE BOIL, skip adding them to your sparge water and add them as you bring the wort to a boil. If you are extract, ignore this paragraph and JUST BREW IT!

funk

Thanks a TON!!!! I'm brewing a wheat beer on saturday, so I'll probably go with about 4 grams to get a better balanced profile... really wish a brew day wasn't going to cost me an extra 5 bucks each batch for distilled water, but whatever... It's worth it! I'm so pumped to do this! Thanks for your help guys!