Possible misinformation about plastic fermentation buckets

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jarrodaden

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I recently purchased a glass carboy thinking that I would begin using secondary fermentation. When I purchased the carboy, I put my wort into the carboy using it as the primary. It was later on this forum that I was told that the plastic bucket is better for a primary because when using the plastic bucket for a secondary, air could permeate into it causing undesired results.

I have been thinking about this and I am not sure that this is necessarily true. The fermentation process produces gas. Thus the reason for an airlock. The airlock will only release the gas when the pressure inside the fermenter is higher than outside.

That being said, if the pressure is higher inside than outside the fermenter I do not see how air would have any tendency to permeate into the fermenter. The only thing that might cause this is if the fermenter drops in temperature and the outside temperature becomes relatively higher there might be a brief moment that the pressure is actually higher outside than inside the fermenter. It is a fact that a set volume of gas will increase in pressure in the temperature rises and vice versa.

Some of us (including me) have seen this happened first hand when they put their wort into the bucket while it was still a bit warmer than room temperature. The following morning they come back to find the liquid in the airlock has been sucked into the fermenter. Set volume of gas is cooled and the pressure drops.

The key in my estimation is to transfer to the secondary while there is still a small amount of off gassing occurring so that the secondary will have a chance to build up gas again once it is sealed.

Another note - An "s bend" airlock has an added benefit if you understand the manometer principle. It will not only function as an airlock, it will give you an indication of how much higher the pressure is inside the fermenter vs outside. You don't necessarily need bubbles to know whether or not the fermenter is slightly under pressure due to off gas.

All of this said, I will still use the bucket for the primary because of ease of cleaning but thought it would be helpful to others to share a little science.
 
Very few people give any real credence to the whole glass vs plastic idiocy. Most of us laugh when we hear those arguments bandied about. It's usually from the extremely noobish, and/or unscrupulous (or just plain ignorant) LHBS people trying to pimp an expensive glass carboy to the unsuspecting, rather than a cheaper (and just as fine) better bottle or plastic bucket.

The yeast don't care what they do their job in....In reality a fermenter is a fermenter is a fermenter.....glass, plastic, carboy, bucket, jerry can, keg, milk jug, ceramic crock, glass hurricane jar, stainless steel or plastic conicals, pet food storage vessels (vittle vaults), HD or Lowe's buckets, frosting buckets, water jugs, the old Mr Beer jug...All of those and anything you can think of, all work perfectly fine, and have been used by hundreds if not thousands of brewers...

No one type is better or worse than any other...good beer or crappy beer can be made in all of them, dependant onthe brewer, NOT what it's fermented in...

It's really just a matter of preference, nothing more....

It really isn't rocket science, it's really about using what works for you.

The only better or best in this race has to be what you've misunderstood. It's better to use a carboy (be it glass or plastic) as A SECONDARY, rather than a bucket, and that has to do with HEADSPACE (if you choose to use a secondary at all.) It doesn't matter what you use as a primary......
 
Ever since I started brewing I have been using buckets as primaries and carboys as secondary, both have been serving me well for many years. Some of my buckets are 5 years old and to date I have never had a beer go bad or infection.
 
My theory is, that at some point CO2 stops being expelled by the fermentation process, and there is no longer a positive pressure airlock (higher pressure inside the fermenter). At that point oxygen can begin to migrate through the vessel walls. I don't know how long this takes,, weeks, months? Or if the rate is even enough to effect beer. But the fact that so many people can make great beer that sits in a HDPE pail for 3-4 weeks or longer without issue, is a testament that most of these polymers are acceptable for fermentation vessels.

*Glass is zero.
Oxygen permeability of different polymers.
Polymer Oxygen permeability (x10-13 cm3. cm cm-2 s-1 Pa-1
LDPE-low density poly ethylene 2.0
HDPE-High density poly ethylene 0.4
PET-Polyethylene terephthalate 0.03
PP-Polypropylene 1.7
PC-Polycarbonate 1.0
PS-Polystyrene 2.0
 
jarrodaden said:
The key in my estimation is to transfer to the secondary while there is still a small amount of off gassing occurring so that the secondary will have a chance to build up gas again once it
Click to expand...


Had the same thoughts about when to transfer but now I have my own co2 tank and I try to purge all my fermentors of oxygen. It's probably not that effective but helps me sleep at night
 
Revvy said:
The yeast don't care what they do their job in....In reality a fermenter is a fermenter is a fermenter.....glass, plastic, carboy, bucket, jerry can, keg, milk jug, ceramic crock, glass hurricane jar, stainless steel or plastic conicals, pet food storage vessels (vittle vaults), HD or Lowe's buckets, frosting buckets, water jugs, the old Mr Beer jug...All of those and anything you can think of, all work perfectly fine, and have been used by hundreds if not thousands of brewers...
Click to expand...

I once saw an article where a guy made a pumpkin ale and did the primary in a carved-out pumpkin fitted with an airlock. Pretty cool.
 
Spartangreen said:
But the fact that so many people can make great beer that sits in a HDPE pail for 3-4 weeks or longer without issue, is a testament that most of these polymers are acceptable for fermentation vessels.
Click to expand...

Many people have left beer in buckets and other plastic vessels for YEARS with no issues.

But yeah, as you posted, the difference between most plastics and glass is really negligible.
 
jkendal said:
I once saw an article where a guy made a pumpkin ale and did the primary in a carved-out pumpkin fitted with an airlock. Pretty cool.
Click to expand...

Yeah the only issue was some mold formation on the pumpkin lid.

Just wait til after Big Brew Day in November, I'm going to do and post something that's going to blow everybody's minds.
 
I left a 13% Tart Cherry Braggot, on cherries, in secondary of an Ale Pail for 8 months. It is super yummy and not oxidized at all. Yooper has had some and I am sure she would have told me about it. It was force carbed and has been in bottles for a few months now. The bucket now has beer stone inside it, it sat so long.

I plan to make a second batch of this but will prob not leave it on the cherries quite so long and will use a carboy as all my buckets have been converted to do sours. In the fore mentioned bucket I have a Lambic going that will be in there for nearly 10 months.

YMMV but that is my story.

IMO:
Buckets: are cheap and work well. The 2 big draw backs are not being able to see the fermentation (Which is HUGE for new brewers) and scratching the inside. There is also a very real danger of getting "suck back" when lifting one full with an airlock attached.

Better bottles and Glass Carboys: These are great for new brewers because they can see what is happening. They are also great for wine so you know when it is done clearing, this can be months.

I use both bucket and glass. The right tool for the job. :mug:
 
My only issue with plastic buckets is that plastic can, and eventually will, scratch. Those scratches are a great place for baddies to hide. I've only had one infection since I started brewing and that was in a plastic bucket (Ed's Oktoberfest too.. I almost cried!). If for no other reason then a false sense of security I only brew in glass now.
 
GreenDragon said:
My only issue with plastic buckets is that plastic can, and eventually will, scratch. Those scratches are a great place for baddies to hide. I've only had one infection since I started brewing and that was in a plastic bucket (Ed's Oktoberfest too.. I almost cried!). If for no other reason then a false sense of security I only brew in glass now.
Click to expand...

On the same line of logic all glass is on a countdown timer until it breaks. I honestly believe that no one really ever owns glass (much like beer) you simply rent it. However piece of mind is a BIG deal.
 
Buckets Rock- biz owners and consumers will always try to justify a higher priced item that provides the same function
 
pgrebus said:
True, but you know if it's broken or not. With scratches on a plastic bucket, it's not always easy to tell.
Click to expand...

You will know when the glass breaks. What you don't know is what is going to happen when it does break.

I easily make the trade off of risking an infected beer over the risk of a trip to the ER!
 
kh54s10 said:
You will know when the glass breaks. What you don't know is what is going to happen when it does break.

I easily make the trade off of risking an infected beer over the risk of a trip to the ER!
Click to expand...

"Live life, taste death!"

Huge bonus points to anyone that actually knows what movie that came from, lol!
 
Frankly, I don't lose sleep over the prospect of scratching buckets. For starters, I think the danger is overrated. For another, if you are even aware of the need to prevent scratches (as you would for glass, to a lesser extent) it's not hard to be a LITTLE careful and not scratch them.
 
Homercidal said:
Frankly, I don't lose sleep over the prospect of scratching buckets. For starters, I think the danger is overrated. For another, if you are even aware of the need to prevent scratches (as you would for glass, to a lesser extent) it's not hard to be a LITTLE careful and not scratch them.
Click to expand...

+1.

And honestly, if you clean throughly and are using a no rinse, wet contact sanitizer, then you are killing anything that is POSSIBLY in the scratch and also putting a sanitizer barrier between the plastic and the beer.

That's really the wonder of the foam in starsan for example, you are getting foam in that scratch.
 
Homercidal said:
Frankly, I don't lose sleep over the prospect of scratching buckets. For starters, I think the danger is overrated. For another, if you are even aware of the need to prevent scratches (as you would for glass, to a lesser extent) it's not hard to be a LITTLE careful and not scratch them.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. I have several buckets, and I'm pretty sure all of them have nicks and scratches in them. A good soak with PBW and a healthy dose of star san right before use seems to do the trick. I've yet to have an infection or an oxidized batch come out of any of my buckets.
 
You know, if you've ever seen how buckets are stored one inside of the other at most LHBSs, and felt the line that is usually in all of them at the point where the bottom of the one inside of yours ended, then you'd realize that they're ALL pretty much scratched.
 
Revvy said:
You know, if you've ever seen how buckets are stored one inside of the other at most LHBSs, and felt the line that is usually in all of them at the point where the bottom of the one inside of yours ended, then you'd realize that they're ALL pretty much scratched.
Click to expand...

Yep. One of my Ale Pails has had that tell tale ring from the bucket above since the day I bought it. I used to be really careful about not storing things like my siphon and paddle in my buckets, but then I thought about how star san can get into those little nicks and clean them. :mug:
 
if a superficial shallow scratch in a bucket is an infection danger, how on earth can we believe something with as many nooks and crannys as an autosiphon wouldn't be?

I use Better Bottles, because A)I like to SEE what's going on, and B) when siphoning, it allows me to get the siphon as close to they yeast cake as possible without disturbing it. I still haven't mastered that with a bucket, but if all my BBs disappeared tonight, I'd ferment in a bucket tomorrow without thinking twice.
 
+1^… I've used both glass and dinged up buckets and haven't had a problem. If you're not diligent with your cleaning and sanitation, you can bugger up a batch in glass, plastic or steel.

I prefer glass cuz I enjoy watching the magic lava-lamp look of the churning fermentation when I'm sniffing airlocks
..!
 
I would totally be buying /clear/ or mostly transparent buckets if I could find them near me, or at least as inexpensively as Ale Pails. Mostly because I really would like to see what is going on inside the buckets.

That said, I wouldn't trade the buckets I do use for using carboys (either glass or better bottles) because of their awkwardness. Well, their awkwardness coupled with MY clumsiness anyway. I have a single glass carboy I have used as secondary, but really not planning on using it for much of anything unless I'm out of buckets.
 
I'm just curious, how many of you who say they like clear glass or plastic because they like to see what's going on, cover their carboys with T-shirts to protect them from the light?;)

I Do..... I'm more concerned with skunking than I am with any ability to see what's going on. Personally I don't care what's going on...I trust my yeast, so I don't feel the need to check on them. I think they work better without me hovering over them.
 
Revvy said:
Very few people give any real credence to the whole glass vs plastic idiocy. Most of us laugh when we hear those arguments bandied about. It's usually from the extremely noobish, and/or unscrupulous (or just plain ignorant) LHBS people trying to pimp an expensive glass carboy to the unsuspecting, rather than a cheaper (and just as fine) better bottle or plastic bucket.
Click to expand...

I find it interesting that you have such strong judgments about the people that argue about plastic and glass (not including yourself). For me it is the reverse: plastic buckets will need to be replaced or upgraded. It makes a lot more sense for a vendor to push those for repeat business. And for online stores, it's safer and cheaper to ship plastic on top of it. And besides the temporary nature of plastic, I have my own opinions about it. All combined, I distrust people pushing the plastic, and I don't believe it's actually cheaper. However I agree with glass needing to be handled very carefully at all times.
 
Revvy said:
You know, if you've ever seen how buckets are stored one inside of the other at most LHBSs, and felt the line that is usually in all of them at the point where the bottom of the one inside of yours ended, then you'd realize that they're ALL pretty much scratched.
Click to expand...

Good point.
 
Scratched buckets are not a problem, have any of you seen the open plastic 1 Ton fermentors that red wine is done in? Oxygen permeability is an absolute non-issue, your beer will NEVER be in there long enough for it to matter, and ONE gravity reading introduces more oxygen into your fermentor than any plastic will in a lifetime.
 
iambeer said:
I find it interesting that you have such strong judgments about the people that argue about plastic and glass (not including yourself).
Click to expand...

I have strong feelings WHENEVER someone feels the need to argue that one thing is any better or worse than another, in brewing.

When people can't separate their PREFERENCES about something with facts and information.

Too many nervous new brewers get suckered into believing often that there's only ONE way to do things and get all stressed out about stupid things that in reality have NO bearing on whether or not good beer can be made.

This is one of those arguments, so is Stainless vs Aluminum, Long Primaries vs Secondaries, 5 gallon vs 10 gallon coolers, Roller Mills vs Corona Style Mills, All Grain Vs Extract, Batch vs Fly Sparging....In fact ANYTHING that is posited as a "Vs" argument, like it's some sort of a contest. Or that good beer can ONLY be made "x" way, and doing the opposite is somehow a gaurantee that beer is going to be crappy.

That's where the TRUE misinformation comes from...

Like I said in my first post ANYTHING can be used to ferment beer in, the yeast don't care. The only thing that matters is we all have preferences; what works for us.

But we need to remember that the yeast don't care.....

One of the things I point out incessently on here is that there's ALWAYS different ways to do things in this hobby. There's very few absolutes here.

And if you ask 10 different brewers the same question you'll get 12 different answers, and usually they'll ALL be the correct answers.
 
Revvy said:
I'm just curious, how many of you who say they like clear glass or plastic because they like to see what's going on, cover their carboys with T-shirts to protect them from the light?;)

I Do..... I'm more concerned with skunking than I am with any ability to see what's going on. Personally I don't care what's going on...I trust my yeast, so I don't feel the need to check on them. I think they work better without me hovering over them.
Click to expand...

Definitely I have to cover 'em. I ferment in a chest freezer w/ 2 way temp control and my heater is a 40W incandescent. I HAVE ruined a batch by leaving the cover off. Tally mark for buckets!

I do know I can make the paint can cover for my lightbulb, and given that I have already lost one batch to skunking, I probably should stop being lazy and just get it done!

I wrap mine in old towels since I have more of those then T-shirts. SWMBO went on a zen rampage a few years back and got rid of many of my favorite Ts
 
jbaysurfer said:
Definitely I have to cover 'em. I ferment in a chest freezer w/ 2 way temp control and my heater is a 40W incandescent. I HAVE ruined a batch by leaving the cover off. Tally mark for buckets!

I do know I can make the paint can cover for my lightbulb, and given that I have already lost one batch to skunking, I probably should stop being lazy and just get it done!

I wrap mine in old towels since I have more of those then T-shirts. SWMBO went on a zen rampage a few years back and got rid of many of my favorite Ts, it took years of counseling, but we're all good now ;-)
Click to expand...

I still think this dude has the right idea!

suitcarboycovers-51582.jpg
 
Revvy said:
I have strong feelings WHENEVER someone feels the need to argue that one thing is any better or worse than another, in brewing.

When people can't separate their PREFERENCES about something with facts and information.

Too many nervous new brewers get suckered into believing often that there's only ONE way to do things and get all stressed out about stupid things that in reality have NO bearing on whether or not good beer can be made.

This is one of those arguments, so is Stainless vs Aluminum.
Click to expand...


Huh? I would never buy aluminum pots or pans. Way too reactive. Stainless steel for life (with a heat spreader). :mug:
 
iambeer said:
Huh? I would never buy aluminum pots or pans. Way too reactive. Stainless steel for life (with a heat spreader). :mug:
Click to expand...


What do you do for a heat spreader?

Regarding Aluminum, I use all SS, but I wouldn't hesitate to use an aluminum brewpot if that was all I could afford. They tend to heat faster and cool faster too, which is a nice tradeoff for not being able to use bleach or Oxyclean as a cleaner. I use PBW anyway.
 

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