Under-carbed and Apple Taste

txaggie · Feb 21, 2012

I know, another newb, under-carbed thread.

I just joined this forum after lurking on it for a few weeks. I started brewing my first batch a little over 6 weeks ago, an extract kit for an amber ale. I ignored the instructions and let it sit in the primary for a bout 17 days (OG was ~1.040, FG before I bottled was ~1.008), then I bottled it and it has currently been in bottles for 4 weeks. used kit instructions, it was a homebrewers.com kit.

I first tried the beer from what was left in the bottom of the bottling bucket after we bottled the beer. At this point, I did not detect any green apple taste. It just tasted like flat beer.

After 2 weeks in a bottle (I know it was early), I tried it and suddenly it had a strong green apple taste to it and very little carbonation. After 3 weeks, it had less of a green apple taste and very weak carbonation. I tried it again yesterday (4 weeks) and it still has a green apple taste, although less so and is still incredibly under-carbed. No head retention whatsoever.

From what I have read, the only thing I think I can do for the carbonation is shake up the bottles and get the yeast back in suspension, assuming there is enough sugar. Is this a good idea.

What is causing the apple taste? Why was it not detected after primary fermentation but suddenly popped up now?

FreshZ · Feb 21, 2012

What did you use to carb?

vmibrewer · Feb 21, 2012

I'm new to brewing as well but I too tried my 1st brew early and noticed a sweet taste. Come to find out it was because of the priming sugar not fully converting. After another week a nice foamy head and a completely different taste. Now I'm at week 8 and the beer tastes great. Keep the bottles stored in a cool relatively constant temp and have patience.

txaggie · Feb 21, 2012

I brought a pint of water to a boil, added 5oz of dextrose, let it dissolve into solution, then added it to my bottling bucket. I let it cool a bit then I siphoned the beer over into the bottling bucket.

Stauffbier · Feb 21, 2012

txaggie, what temp did you ferment your beer at?

txaggie · Feb 21, 2012

Stauffbier said:
txaggie, what temp did you ferment your beer at?

I tried to keep it in the coolest spot in my house, which stays around 70F. Its hard to get it much cooler than that b/c we are currently stationed in the Caribbean. I looked at the temperature strip on the fermentation bucket several times and it was lower than 75F each time I looked at it. Warmest I remember seeing it was 73F.

Stauffbier · Feb 21, 2012

That is a pretty warm temp for most ales. You will likely get some noted, obvious flavors from a fermentation temp that high. You should do a search on this website for "making a swamp cooler".. It's cheap and easy, and it will help you control the temperature of your fermentation. You'll notice a drastic improvement in the taste of your beer!

Schuey102000 · Feb 21, 2012

I have ordered 3 kits from Homebrewers.com and all of them have had this slight cider/apple taste, with very little carbonation. My first 2 batches were fermented in the garage, where it is pretty cool. My last batch was brewed upstairs, where the temps range from about 67-71.

I currently have another batch in the same conditions but from Austin Homebrew, I also brewed this batch with bottled water to try and determine the cause of the apple taste.

I could have sworn I heard some experts on a homebrew podcast saying that they believed old ingredients could cause this taste too.

Stauffbier · Feb 21, 2012

Schuey102000 said:
I have ordered 3 kits from Homebrewers.com and all of them have had this slight cider/apple taste, with very little carbonation. My first 2 batches were fermented in the garage, where it is pretty cool. My last batch was brewed upstairs, where the temps range from about 67-71.

I currently have another batch in the same conditions but from Austin Homebrew, I also brewed this batch with bottled water to try and determine the cause of the apple taste.

I could have sworn I heard some experts on a homebrew podcast saying that they believed old ingredients could cause this taste too.

A temp swing of 10 degrees could cause off flavors, and yes old extract can too!

amazinglarry · Feb 21, 2012

What your describing is called Acetaldehyde, which is usually a characteristic of young beer. Acetaldehyde is a natural fermentation product that will decrease as its converted to ethanol via the anaerobic cycle. You could give it some time as it might go away.

The other possibility is that you converted ethanol to acetaldehyde through oxidation. This is usually where those acetic-cider notes come from. If your beer was splashed around a lot or left open for an extended period of time that could be your issue. This can also be sometimes caused by bacteria as well.

The last possibility is your fermentation conditions as stauffbier pointed out. However, its not so much fermentation temperature as the much as a lack of extended cold storage. Although I should add this usually only for lagers or hybrids.

From what you're describing it sounds like it's probably oxidation or a bacteria. After fermentation keep splashing to a minimum and make sure you clean sanitize all you equipment.

hope this helps.

txaggie · Feb 21, 2012

amazinglarry said:
What your describing is called Acetaldehyde, which is usually a characteristic of young beer. Acetaldehyde is a natural fermentation product that will decrease as its converted to ethanol via the anaerobic cycle. You could give it some time as it might go away.

Would this happen after bottling? Again when I tasted the flat beer right after I bottled it did not have this flavor. Since it was also kind of flat and the apple flavor has gotten better over time, I was hoping, maybe foolishly, that the yeast was caught in some kind of in-between state during bottle conditioning.

amazinglarry said:
The other possibility is that you converted ethanol to acetaldehyde through oxidation. This is usually where those acetic-cider notes come from. If your beer was splashed around a lot or left open for an extended period of time that could be your issue. This can also be sometimes caused by bacteria as well.

I would hope it isn't bacteria as I tried to be pretty anal about using star-san on everything. Oxidation might be an issue, as it was my first batch and I didn't have a thermometer, so I might have transferred the wort too soon, i.e. not let it cool enough. Also the instructions with the kit were written poorly, and did not really emphasize anything about temperatures before transfer. As for siphoning and splashing, I never moved my primary until bottling time and tried not to splash any beer.

I think I'm going to shake them up, see if I can get the yeast to make some more carbonation for me and eat whatever there is left to eat. Maybe it will clear up in a week or two. Any time frames on if/when I should give up on it?

BrewinHooligan · Feb 21, 2012

My first batch came out pretty cidery as a result of a high ferment temp (I live in AZ and my house is never colder than 75). After 6 weeks the cidery flavor had reduced quite a bit but was still noticeable. I would say try one every couple weeks and a week or more in the fridge seems to help the cidery flavor dissipate as well.

Schuey102000 · Feb 21, 2012

I think I'm going to shake them up, see if I can get the yeast to make some more carbonation for me and eat whatever there is left to eat. Maybe it will clear up in a week or two. Any time frames on if/when I should give up on it?

I did this, it didnt make much of a difference.

Stauffbier · Feb 21, 2012

txaggie said:
I think I'm going to shake them up, see if I can get the yeast to make some more carbonation for me and eat whatever there is left to eat. Maybe it will clear up in a week or two. Any time frames on if/when I should give up on it?

Don't shake them! If you want to rouse the yeast in the bottle then do a gentle rocking or swirling. Don't give up on it for at least 8 to 12 weeks in my opinion (even longer if you don't mind storing the bottles long term).. Time can have an amazing effect on your bottled beer...

txaggie · Feb 21, 2012

Stauffbier said:
Don't shake them! If you want to rouse the yeast in the bottle then do a gentle rocking or swirling. Don't give up on it for at least 8 to 12 weeks in my opinion (even longer if you don't mind storing the bottles long term).. Time can have an amazing effect on your bottled beer...

I went ahead and swirled them, going to try and wait them out. Looks like I'll have to drink more beer to accumulate some more bottles for another batch, but I guess thats an OK problem to have.

Whats sad is that after I had already made the wort for my first batch, I read How To Brew by Palmer, and I wish I had read it first, or at least the first half of it or so. Already picked out a few things I did wrong. Always room to improve I guess, so hopefully my 2nd batch turns out better than the first.

Stauffbier · Feb 21, 2012

txaggie said:
I went ahead and swirled them, going to try and wait them out. Looks like I'll have to drink more beer to accumulate some more bottles for another batch, but I guess thats an OK problem to have.

Whats sad is that after I had already made the wort for my first batch, I read How To Brew by Palmer, and I wish I had read it first, or at least the first half of it or so. Already picked out a few things I did wrong. Always room to improve I guess, so hopefully my 2nd batch turns out better than the first.

There's always room for improvement! I don't think you could ever know everything there is to know about this hobby in a lifetime! Oh.. and just so you know... Just when you thought you had enough bottles you'll realize you need more!!

TTB-J · Feb 21, 2012

txaggie said:
I tried to keep it in the coolest spot in my house, which stays around 70F. Its hard to get it much cooler than that b/c we are currently stationed in the Caribbean. I looked at the temperature strip on the fermentation bucket several times and it was lower than 75F each time I looked at it. Warmest I remember seeing it was 73F.

There it is. You fermented too warm. Read this, particularly the description of "Cidery":

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Remember, plastic doesn't transfer heat very well, so it's certainly possible that the temperature inside the bucket was a little higher than what you were reading on the temperature strip. Keep your ambient fermentation temps in the low to mid-60s, I can almost guarantee that you'll lose that cidery flavor.

Also, how long are you cooling your beers before tasting them? I would take a few and cold condition them for at least a week - bringing down the temp helps CO2 absorb into the beer, which will improve carbonation and, over time, the conditioning will help bring that cidery taste down to reasonable levels.

Use an ice bath next time. Buy yourself a cooler, fill it up with water, drop the fermenter in and put in ice to keep the water temperature where you want it - you're creating a new ambient temperature for your beer that way. Or research a swamp cooler - about the same thing, but using evaporative cooling from the combination of a wet cloth and a fan.

amazinglarry · Feb 21, 2012

txaggie said:
Would this happen after bottling? Again when I tasted the flat beer right after I bottled it did not have this flavor. Since it was also kind of flat and the apple flavor has gotten better over time, I was hoping, maybe foolishly, that the yeast was caught in some kind of in-between state during bottle conditioning.

How long was it conditioning in the bottle before you tried it? Is it possible that after you reactivated the yeast for bottling you didn't give it enough time to convert the acetaldehyde? That would explain the under carbonation as well.

Also, I disagree that a 73 degree fermentation temp would be the culprit. Although that is a bit high, it's not extraordinarily high for an ale yeast to produce an excessive amount of acetaldehyde to the extent you described.

Like some of the other posters recommended, cold condition your bottles after a week or two and see if it's any better. I'd be interested in hearing the result.

txaggie · Feb 21, 2012

amazinglarry said:
How long was it conditioning in the bottle before you tried it? Is it possible that after you reactivated the yeast for bottling you didn't give it enough time to convert the acetaldehyde? That would explain the under carbonation as well.

I tried it at 1 week (expected it to be bad then) strong green apple taste, little to no carbonation.
@3 weeks it had light carbonation, less of a green taste.
@ 1 month it had a fleeting head, and still less of a green taste.

I was not worried about poor carbonation or green apple taste until yesterday, which was one month.

I have been refrigerating them for 24-48 hours before consuming. I just swirled the bottles so I'll wait another week, then refrigerate for another week before consuming.

txaggie · Feb 21, 2012

TTB-J said:
Use an ice bath next time. Buy yourself a cooler, fill it up with water, drop the fermenter in and put in ice to keep the water temperature where you want it - you're creating a new ambient temperature for your beer that way. Or research a swamp cooler - about the same thing, but using evaporative cooling from the combination of a wet cloth and a fan.

I will try to keep it cooler, but wasn't worried about it because of this section:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter1-2.html

3. Store the fermentor. Put the lid tightly on the fermentor and carry it to a secure location where it will be undisturbed for two weeks. Choose a location that has a stable temperature of 65-70 °F (18-21 °C). A warmer temperature of 75 °F (24 °C) is okay, but above 80 °F (26 °C) the flavor of the beer will be affected. As soon as you have finished moving it, insert the airlock.

I admit 70F was the high end, but it seemed like as long as it was below 75 it was OK. Also I did not detect the green apple flavor at bottling time (I tried the flat beer from a beer bottle that didn't fill all the way during bottling).

I have been refrigerating them for about 48 hours before trying them. I just swirled them so I might wait a week, then refrigerate one for a week or so to see what happens.

Stauffbier · Feb 21, 2012

txaggie said:
I will try to keep it cooler, but wasn't worried about it because of this section:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter1-2.html

I admit 70F was the high end, but it seemed like as long as it was below 75 it was OK. Also I did not detect the green apple flavor at bottling time (I tried the flat beer from a beer bottle that didn't fill all the way during bottling).

I have been refrigerating them for about 48 hours before trying them. I just swirled them so I might wait a week, then refrigerate one for a week or so to see what happens.

What temp are you bottle conditioning at?

Hockeyhunter99 · Feb 21, 2012

Two possible outcomes of GreenApple flavor. Infection and Young (green) beer. if you have properly conditioned at ~70* for at least three weeks with the proper amount of priming sugar, you should have a carbed beer. but if you don't have carbed beer at the one month mark without gushers, it shouldn't be infected. there seems to be a miss in the information. something doesn't add up. keep it warm and we should see an improvment. if no improvement, drink it and enjoy your own brew. beer has a life of its own and life doesn't always follow the rules.

BTW, what yeast did you use?

TTB-J · Feb 21, 2012

txaggie said:
I admit 70F was the high end, but it seemed like as long as it was below 75 it was OK. Also I did not detect the green apple flavor at bottling time (I tried the flat beer from a beer bottle that didn't fill all the way during bottling).

There are multiple reasons why you wouldn't necessarily taste it at bottling - not the least of which is the sugar you just added for bottle conditioning, which could somewhat mask the flavor. Oxidation during the bottling process can sometimes make the situation worse - if all you were dealing with were some fruity-estery flavors from fermenting too hot and you added acetaldehyde from oxidation of the alcohol in the beer, that could have transformed the flavor into something more noticeable.

Most ale yeasts' optimum range tops out at around 70. Above that, and you may risk off-flavors, depending on how high you go. Like I noted, the temperature inside the bucket is likely a few degrees higher than what you're getting on the strip on the outside of the bucket. Fermentation creates heat, so you can't rely on the ambient temperature of the bucket, or even the edge of the inside of the bucket, to know what temperature all parts of your beer experiencing during fermentation. If you look around here, you'll hear people saying that they've measured temperatures a whole 8 degrees higher in the bucket than were measured outside the bucket. That's probably an unusual case, but it's enough to know that, in all likelihood, your beer was probably at 75 or a bit above. So even following Palmer's very general guidelines, you probably fermented too warm. What yeast were you using? US-05? That's definitely a yeast you want to keep under 70.

txaggie · Feb 22, 2012

Stauffbier said:
What temp are you bottle conditioning at?

Around 70-75F. Its behind a bar right next to my thermostat, but I guess it could be a tad warmer since there is less ventilation in the bar.

For Hockyhunter and TTB-J, the yeast is Danstar Nottingham. Temp might have been a bit warm, which could explain the off flavors, but I'm still confused as to why its undercarbed.

Again for priming I mixed 5oz of Dextrose into a pint of boiling water, then put it in the bottling bucket. Its what the kit called for and from what I've read it seems adequate.

amazinglarry · Feb 22, 2012

txaggie said:
I tried it at 1 week (expected it to be bad then) strong green apple taste, little to no carbonation.
@3 weeks it had light carbonation, less of a green taste.
@ 1 month it had a fleeting head, and still less of a green taste.

I was not worried about poor carbonation or green apple taste until yesterday, which was one month.

I have been refrigerating them for 24-48 hours before consuming. I just swirled the bottles so I'll wait another week, then refrigerate for another week before consuming.

Unfortunately I don't think your going to get a clear answer on this one, it could be a number of factors all acting interdependently. As far as the splashing the wort around before it was fully cooled that's called hot side aeration, this leads to more of a wet cardboard or sherry like flavor rather than green apple. Its only with the introduction of oxygen after primary fermentation that you'll get the green apple, so I don't think that's it.

The only other thing I could think of is that your bottles had some sort of bacteria in them, but I'm sure your going to tell me you thoroughly sanitized them.

what I can say is if you look at all the posts you have some very good general brewing advice, follow it with your next brew and see if the problem corrects itself.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Stauffbier · Feb 22, 2012

txaggie said:
the yeast is Danstar Nottingham. Temp might have been a bit warm, which could explain the off flavors, but I'm still confused as to why its undercarbed.
.

I think I've read that Notti will spit out some funky flavors at higher temps.. I wouldn't know, because when I've used it I fermented between 61-65F.. Give it some time, so you can make a good judgement. I'm looking at dumping my first batch this week. It has almost exactly the same problem as yours... Gushers, and a nasty phenolic, medicinal taste. It's been bottle conditioning for 8 weeks. I believe I picked up a wild yeast or bacteria, because the beer started fermenting again in the bottle. I opened one and let the carbon dioxide settle out and took a hydro reading. It's dropped down to 1.010 on a beer that wasn't supposed to drop lower than 1.014. It has a very dry taste now as well, along with the other bad tastes I described.. My FG was stable at 1.016 for two weeks and that was with gently rousing yeast and warming up the fermentor, so I feel confident it was finished fermenting. It's a disappointment, but it happens...

txaggie · Feb 22, 2012

amazinglarry said:
Unfortunately I don't think your going to get a clear answer on this one, it could be a number of factors all acting interdependently. As far as the splashing the wort around before it was fully cooled that's called hot side aeration, this leads to more of a wet cardboard or sherry like flavor rather than green apple. Its only with the introduction of oxygen after primary fermentation that you'll get the green apple, so I don't think that's it.

The only other thing I could think of is that your bottles had some sort of bacteria in them, but I'm sure your going to tell me you thoroughly sanitized them.

what I can say is if you look at all the posts you have some very good general brewing advice, follow it with your next brew and see if the problem corrects itself.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

It was the first batch, so who knows. I Scrubbed all the bottles with a bottle brush, then I used star san to sanitize bottles. I guess something could have happened, but most of the bottles still had a little bit of star san foam in them whenever I was filling bottles. I just filled a bottle part way with starsan, shook it around, then poored it into the next. I used my dishwasher rack as a bottle rack, after it had ran a load, and i also sprayed it with starsan.

I guess I'll sit on it for a bit more and see what happens. Otherwise I can get some guiness and make a snakebite-esk drink. That way I don't have to waste it all.

txaggie · Mar 5, 2012

So I did pretty much what I said I would do. I swirled the bottles then put them in a warmer spot. After about a week, I put a bottle in the fridge, left it in there for a week and what came out was a nicely carbed beer at least. Not a lot of head, but nicely carbed.

The apple taste is still there, but fainter and it is now a drinkable beer, although not a very good one. I'll probably give it another month and then try it again and see what happens. Hopefully it tastes like beer at some point.

On a side note, My oatmeal stout has exceeded my expectations. I made it after I bottled my amber, and even after 3 weeks in the bottle it has some descent carbonation, a little head with some retention, and a great flavor to it.

I didn't do anything that different temperature wise with the OS, but I also read Palmer's book in between brewing the first and second batch's so I did change up some of my technique and refine a few things. It also wouldn't surprise me if the Stout's stronger flavor might hide the off flavors, if any, produced by the yeast, but I'm not sure. I definitely will use some type of swamp bucket setup for next batch.

Should hopefully have something in the fermentation bucket in the next week or so.

Just-a-Guy · Mar 5, 2012

I brewed my first beer (a partial mash/extract kit IPA) back in November. I didn't understand fermentation temps, and I used tap water. Made other mistakes, I'm sure. After 3 weeks in primary, I bottled it. Three weeks in bottles, it was barely drinkable. I would describe the taste much as you have.

I just let it sit. Now, having been in the bottles more like 12 weeks (I wasn't keeping a calendar back then, as I am now), it's not bad. I don't know if my tastes have declined, or if it's the beer. But it seems much better now.

Just thought I'd toss that out there as my own experience. FWIW, my subsequent batches have been much better (and I have one bottle conditioning and three in fermenters yet to try).

Under-carbed and Apple Taste

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