Originally posted by chri5
The first thing I thought when I tasted DFH90 was, "Wow. Why didn't they call this a barleywine." It wouldn't be an extreme example of barleywine, but it would certainly be in the range.
My thoughts exactly. In fact, I would not be having this discussion if it was called a barleywine. I would look at it in a different light completely. Not saying it would change my view on liking or disliking the beer, just from a critique (not the word I want to use, just can't think of another) sense.
I don't see it as a barleywine....a good example of a hoppy barleywine to me is Rogue's Old Crustacean:
.....the thing about many "American" imperial styles is that they do throw in all sorts of things to get ABV up (and may have more unfermentable sugars that also ups sweetness).
And barleywines don't taste anything like DFH 90, plus they are a higher ABV. I do think DFH is doing fine by calling the 90 minute a DIPA....it does seem to fit the characteristics for me, even if it is too sweet for my tastes. I also wouldn't go by attenuation in judging sweetness either.
My rye IPA seems to be having a ABV of 8 and the FG is right at 1.020....it's not sweet at all due to the heavy amount of rye and little crystal.
With the 90 minute having 90 IBU, it does have plenty of hops
I am glad that we can have a good debate like this to iron out different thoughts on the same subject. And I love a good Rye IPA, just kicked my keg of the stuff that was 8.5%. Have three pints of that and you wake up without your pants, sleeping in the garage
In the top where you mention Rogue, it is hoppy and I didn't find the 90 minute to have the hop prowess I thought it would. Where you mention it not being a barleywine, I want to show how the BJCP describes a barleywine. They can call their beer whatever, but to me this is an accurate description of what I taste in the 90min:
Flavor: Strong, intense malt flavor with noticeable bitterness. Moderately low to moderately high malty sweetness on the palate, although the finish may be somewhat sweet to quite dry (depending on aging). Hop bitterness may range from moderately strong to aggressive. While strongly malty, the balance should always seem bitter. Moderate to high hop flavor (any variety). Low to moderate fruity esters. Noticeable alcohol presence, but sharp or solventy alcohol flavors are undesirable. Flavors will smooth out and decline over time, but any oxidized character should be muted (and generally be masked by the hop character). May have some bready or caramelly malt flavors, but these should not be high. Roasted or burnt malt flavors are inappropriate. No diacetyl.
The second sentence alone nails what I tasted in the 90min.
When I think about IPA, the first thing that comes to mind is hop aroma. If I am drinking a Pale Ale then I want bitterness from hops, though not as much the aroma of hops. IPA also is dry, sometimes on the edge of bone dry from both the hops and the attenuation. When I think DIPA, I think higher alcohol, but still dry finish and hoppy aroma. There can be more sugar left in it, but the bitterness of the hops and the hop acid should make it have the perception of dryness. The 90 minute to me missed its mark there by not having any hop aroma (maybe I got an old bottle when I retried it last month, but at the beer fest it was a fresh keg and I don't remember any aroma) and then by being sweet. Not just malty, but sweet.
That is why I wouldn't call it an IPA, but a barleywine. And under the BJCP guidelines, the
Imperial IPA can have an OG of up to 1.090, where the
barleywine goes from 1.080-1.120. And as a barleywine, I think it is an excellent example.
*Another Disclaimer - the local god here, Russian River, calls their Pliny the Elder and their Pliny the Younger both Imperial IPA. The Younger is definately barleywine strength at 10.5%abv and is hopped to bejesus, but they still call it an IIPA. So DFH can keep calling them whatever they want.