sivdrinks
Well-Known Member
If I'm understanding it's purpose correctly I don't see the need for one with BIAB. Any arguments? For the record I'm using a keggle and no sparge.
Wouldn't the higher temp create a thicker less ABV beer though? Not sure how that doesn't actually hurt efficiency. I'm using a custom bag that fits my keggle and use a good bit of water, my absorption is pretty low.
My understanding is that it makes the grain bed more liquid which allows the wort and sugars to make it into your brew kettle vs. staying stuck to the grain when you lift them from the kettle. I haven't done any scientific experiments to prove any theories either way about this ... mainly because doing a mashout is so simple that I've always just done them.
MalFet said:Are you talking about fermentability from different mash temps? Sure, that's true, but a mash out doesn't (or shouldn't) affect that.
Yeah, but ok. I'm using about 7.5-8 gallons water with my 9-12 pound grain bills so it's pretty liquidy.
I do agree that the solubility of sugar goes up as the temp does (try dissolving a teaspoon of sugar in cold tap water, then try it in boiling water) but it's not very relevant to the mash out.
BeerWiki quote: "Mashing out is the process of raising the mash temperature to 170F. The goal being to halt any enzymatic activity and prevent further conversion of starches to sugars.
Mash-out is often left out of the batch sparging process as a large amount of 170F+ water will be added for the sparging process."
And, IMO, if you do NO SPARGE BIAB and your plan is to start boiling immediately, then that essentially funtions as a mash-out.
MalFet said:I'm sorry, I'm not following you. Mash temperature will affect the fermentability of your wort. The amount of water you add will make your mash thicker or thinner. These two things aren't really that related, and a mash-out is different than either. Using a mash-out will neither change the fermentability of your wort nor alter your water to grist ratio. All it does is stop enzyme activity.
What are the enzymes doing that need stopped? If I pull the bag out and drain/squeeze isn't that enough? I only mentioned water volume because I figured the extra amount with BIAB/no sparge would take care of rinsing the sugars. I'm still new so be gentle!
What are the enzymes doing that need stopped? If I pull the bag out and drain/squeeze isn't that enough? I only mentioned water volume because I figured the extra amount with BIAB/no sparge would take care of rinsing the sugars. I'm still new so be gentle!
Converting starches to sugars is one thing. But comparing traditional AG mashouts to BIAB mashouts is like comparing apples to oranges. With AG, it's all about stopping enzymatic activity, etc. With BIAB, the mash is heated to 170 to make it more fluid and thereby easier to drain the wort into the kettle. Getting as much wort as possible into the kettle is critical with no-sparge BIAB. Try it some time and you'll see the difference...
I'm confident that mashouts with BIAB do make a difference.
Converting starches to sugars is one thing. But comparing traditional AG mashouts to BIAB mashouts is like comparing apples to oranges. With AG, it's all about stopping enzymatic activity, etc. With BIAB, the mash is heated to 170 to make it more fluid and thereby easier to drain the wort into the kettle. Getting as much wort as possible into the kettle is critical with no-sparge BIAB. Try it some time and you'll see the difference...
This whole argument about whether efficiency can be improved or not but doing a mashout sounds like it would be a good experiment. Mash two batches of grain and keep everything identical except that one gets a mashout and the other doesn't. Then calculate efficiency and see if there is a difference or not. I will try this one day unless someone else beats me to it.
+1 on getting more extraction on Mashout; I get about 3-5 OG points w/170 mashout as I begin to heat my mash tun / boil kettle. You gotta heat it anyway?... Also, the whole Denatured enzyme is a redhering in BIAB.
For example, if a given bill normally takes 60 minutes to convert at 152F, you can do 30 minutes at 152 and spend 15 minutes ramping up to 168 and it will definitely be done.
Parkinson1963 said:http://chestofbooks.com/food/science/Experimental-Cookery/Solubility-Of-Maltose-In-Water-gillis.html
Looking at the link shows that by going from 66c Mash temp to mash out temp of 76c you gain ~30% increase in solubility, thus increasing the amount of maltose that the water will hold and subsequently drain into the kettle. Any way as previously stated as you are heating to a boil anyway, lifting the bag out at 76c to gain a gravity points seems like a no brainier to me. YMMV
ultravista said:What is the purpose of stopping enzymatic activity to prevent further conversion of starches to sugars? Wouldn't you want more conversion than less? Does further conversion result in a higher gravity or greater efficiency?
I don't understand the importance of stopping the conversion. What are the bad results of not stopping it?
It can result in a higher final gravity, that's about it. There won't be much to convert at that point though so it's really not going to do much.
Realistically there's no real benefit. I never do a mash out.
It can result in a higher final gravity, that's about it. There won't be much to convert at that point though so it's really not going to do much.
Realistically there's no real benefit. I never do a mash out.
(emphasis mine). You seem to be indicating that once a starch is converted, it's either fermentable or unfermentable and will stay that way, while the article seems to indicate that the sugars can be further broken down, in which case a mashout would help if you are going to do a sparge or pause between mash and boil and want a higher amount of dextrines. But if you are going to begin the boil immediately (no-sparge BIAB), as you said it has no effect.A longer mash will give the enzymes more time to break down starch and dextrines
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