Percolator HERMS Tank

Well what you all think about this idea. I do not know if anybody has attempted this before but I was at our local salvation army today and picked up a peculator coffee maker. I figured $6.00 so what the heck. Now my reasoning behind this is to create a separate HERMS tank that will be used in my new HERMS brewery. (see “Another HERMS Designed on the Clock” in the equipment/sanitation section https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/another-herms-designed-clock-135250/.

Anyway what I did was a trial run to see what kind of temps I would achieve and I was able to reach 178 – 180 degrees within 20 minutes. This peculator has a 1090 watt element and held 1 ¾ gallons of water without any type of coil inside.

What I would probably do at this point is to mount a coil inside the tank and then have two fittings for the coil mounted on the side. Also I might possibly have a stir motor on top to keep the temperature even. I do not know if this is even necessary though. The tank would be controlled by the BCS460 in order to maintain temps.

The HERMS tank would then be mounted on the single tier rig on the shelf below the burners. Probably below the mash tun since it is not direct fired. I need something that is compact and will not have any risk associated with scorching. Additionally I will be brewing in the winter so temp control will be tough. Well let me know your thoughts.

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Theres one of these out at my farm house! Thanks for the inspiration.

As for the winter thing, INSULATE EVERYTHING. Hoses, the body of the tank, EVERYTHING.

Cool idea. Are the electronics accessible?

So does that mean you will have a separate HLT for providing Strike and Sparge water? If you are going to have a separate HLT why would you want to have a separate HERMS device? Why would you not want to put your HERMS coil in your HLT and control the flow through the HERMS coil with your BCS460 controlling a pump. You are going to need a pump anyway.

Funny you should post this, I'm in the middle of doing the same thing (and here I thought I was being original!). I was going to try to use the percolator without modifying it, but decided to tinker with it anyway.

I've actually replaced the 1090W element with a 1500W element that I bought a while back. Fit like a glove, the hole on the bottom of the tank is already the perfect size. I'm not going to worry about stirring...it's such a small volume of water that I'm just not that worried about it. Still have to make my coil, wiring, a little bit of insulation, etc.

I've been "leak-checking" all afternoon, wanted to make sure I has a good seal on the new element. So far so good!

here's a pic during my "leak test". Not really much to see, tho.

Sweet idea! I like it...

jtucker101 said:

Funny you should post this, I'm in the middle of doing the same thing (and here I thought I was being original!). I was going to try to use the percolator without modifying it, but decided to tinker with it anyway.

I've actually replaced the 1090W element with a 1500W element that I bought a while back. Fit like a glove, the hole on the bottom of the tank is already the perfect size. I'm not going to worry about stirring...it's such a small volume of water that I'm just not that worried about it. Still have to make my coil, wiring, a little bit of insulation, etc.

I've been "leak-checking" all afternoon, wanted to make sure I has a good seal on the new element. So far so good!

Click to expand...

jtucker,
How is the new element working for you? Where did you get it? What did you use for a cord? I also thought about switching over the element to be able to change the temperature quicker.
Did you fill this with water yet and how close were you to the top? I believe that the element needs to be completely submerged or you might burn the element up.
Anyway the next thing to do is just to add two fittings and a small coil to the tank and you should be ready to go. I hope this idea works because it will fit on my stand pretty easy. I do not see a reason why this would not work especially using the new element.

Sawdustguy

My reasoning for using this type of vessel V's the HLT approach is that I will be able to have faster temperature response time and be able to control the temperature independently of the sparge water temp. Additionally it might save some energy not having to keep the full HLT up to temp with a gas burner for the entire mash period.

leboeuf
Yes the electronics are accessible

Oh one other comment insulation will be necessary but no big deal!

harley03 said:

jtucker,
How is the new element working for you? Where did you get it? What did you use for a cord? I also thought about switching over the element to be able to change the temperature quicker.
Did you fill this with water yet and how close were you to the top? I believe that the element needs to be completely submerged or you might burn the element up.
Anyway the next thing to do is just to add two fittings and a small coil to the tank and you should be ready to go. I hope this idea works because it will fit on my stand pretty easy. I do not see a reason why this would not work especially using the new element.

Click to expand...

My budget is pretty limited, so I don't have wiring or anything done yet. I'm a slow mover, anyway. I'm trying to take my time and plan out my brew rig, so in the mean time I'm doing gravity-feed batches.

That being said, leak test went fine without any heat put to it. I filled it all the way up without any issue, and the top of the element sits about an inch below the rim of the percolator. I got the element off ebay for 5 bucks plus shipping. The element was so cheap I actually bought a replacement, just in case. I think they're for an RV water heater or something like that.

As for the cord, I think I have a spare cord for an old computer. I'll have to check what the AWG is, but I'm pretty sure it's stout enough to handle the element. I probably won't have this entire project finished until November, though. Our homebrew club is in the middle of planning and organizing for a Brewer's Jam here in Knoxville (in October) so I've been pretty tied up with that.

Have you been able to use or test your in your brewing yet?

Sawdustguy said:

So does that mean you will have a separate HLT for providing Strike and Sparge water? If you are going to have a separate HLT why would you want to have a separate HERMS device? Why would you not want to put your HERMS coil in your HLT and control the flow through the HERMS coil with your BCS460 controlling a pump. You are going to need a pump anyway.

Click to expand...

How do you sparge with ~170 degree water when your HLT has been keeping your MLT at 154?

Synovia said:

How do you sparge with ~170 degree water when your HLT has been keeping your MLT at 154?

Click to expand...

You stop recirculating the mash through the HERMS coil. Bring the HLT up to 170* from 154* (it should not take long to raise the temp 16*) then sparge. Many, many brewers have systems that work that way.

Sawdustguy said:

Why would you not want to put your HERMS coil in your HLT and control the flow through the HERMS coil with your BCS460 controlling a pump.

Click to expand...

If you're using the BCS-460 to control the pump as opposed to the heating element, what maintains the HLT at 170* throughout the Sparge?

I'm not familiar with the BCS-460, but if if you're controlling the pump and you overshoot/undershoot...it seems to me you would increase or decrease the flow rate of sparge water delivered to the mash. Is this the case, or are you controlling some other process variable during the sparge?

jtucker101 said:

If you're using the BCS-460 to control the pump as opposed to the heating element, what maintains the HLT at 170* throughout the Sparge?

I'm not familiar with the BCS-460, but if if you're controlling the pump and you overshoot/undershoot...it seems to me you would increase or decrease the flow rate of sparge water delivered to the mash. Is this the case, or are you controlling some other process variable during the sparge?

Click to expand...

I don't use a BCS-460 but if you had an E-HLT (electric element heating in the HLT) you would have the BCS-460 control a SSR which would switch the heating element on and off to maintain temperature in the HLT. Of course a temperature sensor would need to be placed in the HLT and connected to the BCS-460. The BCS-460 to my understanding can control a number of processes.

that's what we're doing, we just aren't using the HLT to do it.

I'm not sure about harley03's design, but I use a propane burner for my HLT and boil kettle. the percolator is fairly small, stainless and already has a heating element in it. kind of saves some steps in the fabrication department.

jtucker101 said:

that's what we're doing, we just aren't using the HLT to do it.

I'm not sure about harley03's design, but I use a propane burner for my HLT and boil kettle. the percolator is fairly small, stainless and already has a heating element in it. kind of saves some steps in the fabrication department.

Click to expand...

I see that. My only point is that why use both the HLT and the percolator when all you have to do is put the HERMS coil in the HLT.

I see where you're coming from, but for that matter why not skip a RIMS system or a HERMS system altogether and just recirculate the mash into the boil kettle, direct-fire it there while you're bringing your sparge water up to temperature in the HLT? I'm sure there are some that do it that way.

Think about this, though...you're cruising along recirculating, now you've got to stop, add more water to the HLT, bring it up to temperature and then continue with the sparge. With a separate vessel, I can bring my sparge water up to temperature the same time I'm recirculating. My brew day is long enough as it is, I don't need to extend it any further.

For arguments sake, let's say we consolodate a bit here by adding all my sparge water to the HLT from the very start. Now you won't have to stop recirculating to bring sparge water up to temperature, right?

My last recipe I needed about 5 gallons of sparge water. What if I double my recipe to make a bigger batch? Now I've got to maintain temperature in my HLT for twice that volume of sparge water, with different reaction times and tuning parameters. Part of my system design is around repeatability, and this seems like the tougher road.

If I'm seeking some precise temperature control, wouldn't it be easier to do in a smaller vessel where I can detect temperature deviations and try to correct them much faster? As an added bonus, I can run my sparge water through my HERMS coil and have the PID loop maintain 170* throughout the sparge, so I know my temperatures are better maintained.

what you do is bring the HLT to temp at the end of your mash while still recirculating, this mashes you out. Then you stop recirculating and begin the sparge.

Orangevango said:

what you do is bring the HLT to temp at the end of your mash while still recirculating, this mashes you out. Then you stop recirculating and begin the sparge.

Click to expand...

I agree that it can be done...IMO (for what I want in my system) it's more of a hassle to drop the coil in the HLT and try to maintain temperature than to get the sparge water close to temperature and let the HERMS chamber maintain my sparge temps.

Everyone is going to have a different view as to what the right way is, but in the end, we're all making beer!