New Giveaway - Wort Monster Conical Fermeneter!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > DIY Projects > Glycol through Therminator/Plate Chiller: big batches




Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-13-2010, 04:16 AM   #1
mikefromcu
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: San Diego
Posts: 88
Default Glycol through Therminator/Plate Chiller: big batches

Attention all engineers (I should have paid more attention in skool):

I'm thinking of recirculating Glycol through the plate-chiller as the cooling solution to my large batches. On my 20 gallon system I run hose water through the chiller, while recirculating the wort back to the kettle to get the wort down to ~150, then use a recirculating ice bath on the plate chiller and pump from the kettle into the fermenter. No problem. BUT!

Now I'm moving to larger batches and don't want to waste as much and would like to speed this up... Wonder if I used glycol the whole time if I could go straight off the whirlpool kettle (still around 200ish) to the fermenter if it used Glycol as the chilling fluid?

I was thinking I could put a container (bucket like) in my chest freezer to hold a large glycol bath (20? 30?? gallon bucket in there, with a submersible pump) and two lines, one to and one from the glycol bucket through the chiller.

How would I calculate how much glycol I'd need? I really need to go single pass straight off the whirlpool kettle - and this for what will be my 51 gallon batches...

Thoughts? Seen it? Help!



__________________
mikefromcu is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-13-2010, 10:58 AM   #2
kladue
Senior Member
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Turner, Oregon, Oregon most of the time now
Posts: 2,291
Liked 43 Times on 40 Posts

Default

Probably the simple answer would be to series connect 2 plate chiilers and pump from kettle to fermenter. First plate chiller would pull wort temperature down to 80 using water then second glycol cooled chiller would drop remainder of temperature. The method for the glycol system would be water filled tubes with glycol circulated through copper pipe hairpins, with water in frozen state you would have a larger energy sink than just liquid glycol solution. I will look into calculating what it will take to cool 50 gallons from 212 to 60 degrees as a starting point for a wort cooling system.



__________________
kladue is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-13-2010, 11:13 AM   #3
beerthirty
big beers turn my gears
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
beerthirty's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 2,651
Liked 21 Times on 11 Posts

Default

Kevin, using the method you mentioned above would a water bottle cooler be able to handle the second plates chilling needs for small batches?

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_bird View Post
"I've got a fever... and the only prescription is, MORE CARBOYS!"
primary- Tangerine Dream, SWMBO slayer,
serving- amber ale hop experiment #6, Roggenbier, apfelwine
planning- Cru?
conditioning- 9/9/09 barleywine
Drink water?... Never, fish fornicate in it.--- W.C. Fields
Most problems can be solved with the proper application of force.
beerthirty is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-13-2010, 12:21 PM   #4
kladue
Senior Member
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Turner, Oregon, Oregon most of the time now
Posts: 2,291
Liked 43 Times on 40 Posts

Default

If you used a storage container and circulated the coolant until it got down to temp before starting wort chilling it should work. The coolers thermostats bottom out at 40 F without some recalibration, so a bit of work would be needed to get temperatures down to 32 F. I have a cooling system built with 2 remote water fountain chillers and a 50L keg for coolant storage, running but not tested with a 10 gallon batch yet.

__________________
kladue is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-13-2010, 04:12 PM   #5
Bjornbrewer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: St. Clair Shores, MI, USA, Earth, Sol System, Milky Way
Posts: 428
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikefromcu View Post
Now I'm moving to larger batches and don't want to waste as much and would like to speed this up... Wonder if I used glycol the whole time if I could go straight off the whirlpool kettle (still around 200ish) to the fermenter if it used Glycol as the chilling fluid?

I was thinking I could put a container (bucket like) in my chest freezer to hold a large glycol bath (20? 30?? gallon bucket in there, with a submersible pump) and two lines, one to and one from the glycol bucket through the chiller.
You could use brine solution instead of Glycol...less toxic if spilt and easily made at home.

I think you need about (depending on temperature of brine/glycol and efficiency of CF chiller) about two times the amount of chilling liquid than wort to be chilled. On a 51g batch you would need about 100g of brine at 0*F.


I'm only an electrical engineer so don't trust everything I say
__________________
Sand Viking Brewery

“Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle.” ~George Burns
Bjornbrewer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-13-2010, 08:21 PM   #6
goatchze
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: College Station, TX
Posts: 108
Default

mikefromcu,

It's difficult to say how much glycol you'll need, but I imagine quite a bit. You'd need to know how quickly your chest freezer can keep up with the heat you'll be dumping into it. (Don't forget that for every BTU of heat you dump into your freezer, that BTU has to be pumped back out).

You can calculate the minimum amount of glycol required using a heat balance. BUT! You want to speed this thing up, so you're going to need more than the minimum.

How quickly do you want to drain your wort? Do you know the UA on your heat exchanger from past runs or can you approximate it? (UA can be approximated if you have your old flow rates, ie how long does it take to drain, and temperatures going in/out). The manufacturer may have given the "design" UA or at least an area.

If you can answer those two questions then the needed amount of glycol can be calculated. (BTW, which glycol are you planning on using?)

__________________

Last edited by goatchze; 01-13-2010 at 08:24 PM.
goatchze is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-13-2010, 10:33 PM   #7
kladue
Senior Member
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Turner, Oregon, Oregon most of the time now
Posts: 2,291
Liked 43 Times on 40 Posts

Default

Here is an ice bank example built by Yorg from HD parts http://picasaweb.google.com.au/YorgTheodore/ShareOnline#5356097670941569362, this lets the freezer freeze the water then the glycol coolant is circulated and transfers heat to the ice. This will increase the heatsink capacity of a freezer to a point where glycol cooling becomes practical on a small scale. The other advantage is the total quantity of the coolant is in the 5 gallon range not 50 gallons.

__________________
kladue is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-14-2010, 01:46 AM   #8
kladue
Senior Member
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Turner, Oregon, Oregon most of the time now
Posts: 2,291
Liked 43 Times on 40 Posts

Default

Here are some rough numbers for the glycol cooling systems for cooling 51 gallons of wort from 210 degrees to 65 degrees

1. All glycol at 40 degrees F starting temp, about 55 gallons at ideal heat exchange conditions.

2. Water pre cool to 100 degrees, Glycol to 65 degrees F., about 37 gallons at ideal exchange.

3 Water pre cool to 100 degrees,130 Lb Ice bank with glycol circulation (10-4"IDX30" cylinders in freezer), total melt of ice to bring wort down to 65 degrees F..

Water consumption for pre cool would be in excess of 65 gallons to remove most of the heat.

__________________
kladue is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-14-2010, 02:42 AM   #9
Hang Glider
Beer Drinker
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
Hang Glider's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: North Augusta, SC
Posts: 3,138
Liked 139 Times on 113 Posts
Likes Given: 100

Default

So...if you're making 50 gallon batches, a dedicated chest freezer filled with glycol might do the trick....

__________________
Hang Glider is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-14-2010, 03:12 AM   #10
BrewBeemer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: far away with neighboring islands, \"Me Island\"
Posts: 3,503
Liked 20 Times on 20 Posts
Likes Given: 7

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kladue View Post
Here are some rough numbers for the glycol cooling systems for cooling 51 gallons of wort from 210 degrees to 65 degrees

1. All glycol at 40 degrees F starting temp, about 55 gallons at ideal heat exchange conditions.

2. Water pre cool to 100 degrees, Glycol to 65 degrees F., about 37 gallons at ideal exchange.

3 Water pre cool to 100 degrees,130 Lb Ice bank with glycol circulation (10-4"IDX30" cylinders in freezer), total melt of ice to bring wort down to 65 degrees F..

Water consumption for pre cool would be in excess of 65 gallons to remove most of the heat.
This must be a rather large investment in glycol alone at this large of a amount. I see Texas so the pre cool ground water must be rather warm besides the amount available to let let flow and considered lost or yard water.
The 65 gallon amount isn't a worry with my brewing in the past as I have city water plus well water that I let run by the hour for the yard. I can go thru 1,400 gallons of well water every second day without any worries with the temp at 63*F summer, 59 to 61*F winter.
My friend has a 14 cu/ft freezer that had a 1/8" aluminum liner fitted inside which holds 135 gallons of well water starting at 34*F as a second chiller system for his 25 gallon batches. First run with well water then the keezer cooler water. He needs 4 days to chill 63*F water down first. This was way cheaper than the price of glycol, messing around with blocks of ice or any other chiller system with the larger brew batches.


__________________

Bier Jagdwaffe... Bier 30 zeit.....~~=o&o>..........

BrewBeemer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Possible Glycol Chiller? Bigfoot99 Equipment/Sanitation 14 03-20-2013 05:26 AM
shirron plate chiller vs. ebay plate chiller trailblazer Equipment/Sanitation 39 01-25-2012 01:16 AM
Home Made Glycol Chiller from A/C unit terrazza Equipment/Sanitation 24 07-28-2011 03:35 AM
Plate Chillers - other than Shirron & Therminator? Lil' Sparky Equipment/Sanitation 24 08-31-2010 07:09 PM
Glycol Chiller DIY Ideas trailblazer Fermentation & Yeast 4 10-05-2009 04:48 PM