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Old 01-26-2011, 11:15 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Burro2882 View Post
Nah, just a bit pretentious. That's all.

Oh and I wasn't actually singling you out. But obviously you felt that shoe fit.
Ohhh, then please enlighten us as to what post you were referring, so we can all share in the hilarity of your witty little meaningless comment.

Pretentious? I would rather be considered pretentious, than write cute little posts in an attempt to mask obvious intellectual shortcomings so you don't actually have to engage in a meaningful conversation because you fail to understand the words and references people make.

To the OP, I apologize for the short hijack and promise not to devote anymore time to Burro by searching this thread. You know what they say, "When you argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience" Burro I concede to your experience. Goodbye and good riddance....



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Old 01-26-2011, 11:49 PM   #42
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the ethics debate on intellectual property rights gets tiring. For people like the OP and WhiskySix, it should be fairly reasonable why they support strong IPR's with regard to artists work etc... that being said it's not the only ethical standard, and for most of humanity's history has not even been an enforced standard. It's not as clear cut as "it's just theft"; certainly the blatant use of other peoples work to make money without giving them any mentioned credit is considered bad, but the manipulation and appropriation of other work into yours is a stickier matter.

If I take a shot from a movie, posterize it in photoshop, map it to vectors and create my own image that incorporates it, am I stealing? Legally perhaps, but ethically it's more complex than that.
It's really not more complex than that. You can rationalize all you want (and I have, many times so I'm throwing stones at myself too) but the fact is, if you take something that somebody else produced and used any part of it as your own without compensation, you are stealing.

Nobody has a hard time with concrete examples. Somebody takes the time and effort to widdle perfect walking sticks (cheesy I know but go with me). You like the walking sticks and think they would be the perfect piece with which to build a fishing pole. So you take one and make a kick ass fishing pole without telling the woodworker.

You have changed it. Made it your own. Gone further with the design than the original wood worker. You still took something that wasn't yours to start. You stole.

Yes it's cheesy, but it's the exact same thing. Now, the usage on such a small level nobody is going to care. We're not making money on it so who cares, right? Go ahead and keep on rationalizing. Lord knows I do on occasion (mp3s anybody). But don't for a minute think it's a defendable stance to take.

I'm not saying you can't do it or that you should feel bad about it (I don't and I'm probably a bad person because of it). But you give up your right to be offended when somebody who pours all of their effort into a craft is put off by people just taking things for their own use without thinking twice.
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You guys joke around with this all you want, but let me tell you something: I tried making my own beer one time and wound up with herpes!


Primary: Billy Corrigan Ale, malted cider experiment, Optimator clone
Secondary: Sorachi Ace IPA
Bottled: Dark Lord Clone Imperial Stout, Winter 2010 Spiced Ale Ambassador Brown Ale, Michigan Berry pLambic
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:54 PM   #43
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You have changed it. Made it your own. Gone further with the design than the original wood worker. You still took something that wasn't yours to start. You stole.
Sorry, but I don't agree with this example at all. Re-use does not equal theft, unless you literally stole the walking stick to begin with. Ask any honest artist (in any medium) and they will tell you that they "borrowed" all sorts of ideas, techniques, etc. from their influences.

One of my hobbies is refinishing broken antique Philco radios and retrofitting them with discarded computer parts. Am I stealing from Philco?

Is a sculptor who works with found objects stealing?

Is a collage artist stealing?

Was Andy Warhol nothing but a thief? The Parthenon was made with materials from a previous temple. Were its builders thieves? I could go on forever.
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Old 01-27-2011, 01:22 PM   #44
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It's really not more complex than that. You can rationalize all you want (and I have, many times so I'm throwing stones at myself too) but the fact is, if you take something that somebody else produced and used any part of it as your own without compensation, you are stealing.

Nobody has a hard time with concrete examples. Somebody takes the time and effort to widdle perfect walking sticks (cheesy I know but go with me). You like the walking sticks and think they would be the perfect piece with which to build a fishing pole. So you take one and make a kick ass fishing pole without telling the woodworker.

You have changed it. Made it your own. Gone further with the design than the original wood worker. You still took something that wasn't yours to start. You stole.

Yes it's cheesy, but it's the exact same thing. Now, the usage on such a small level nobody is going to care. We're not making money on it so who cares, right? Go ahead and keep on rationalizing. Lord knows I do on occasion (mp3s anybody). But don't for a minute think it's a defendable stance to take.

I'm not saying you can't do it or that you should feel bad about it (I don't and I'm probably a bad person because of it). But you give up your right to be offended when somebody who pours all of their effort into a craft is put off by people just taking things for their own use without thinking twice.
The fishing pole example is insane. Completely disagree. Under that strange rationale - all innovation is theft and all innovators should feel terrible.
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Old 01-27-2011, 01:30 PM   #45
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Sorry, but I don't agree with this example at all. Re-use does not equal theft, unless you literally stole the walking stick to begin with. Ask any honest artist (in any medium) and they will tell you that they "borrowed" all sorts of ideas, techniques, etc. from their influences.

One of my hobbies is refinishing broken antique Philco radios and retrofitting them with discarded computer parts. Am I stealing from Philco?

Is a sculptor who works with found objects stealing?

Is a collage artist stealing?

Was Andy Warhol nothing but a thief? The Parthenon was made with materials from a previous temple. Were its builders thieves? I could go on forever.
good username to post correlation... +1
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:28 PM   #46
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To the OP, I apologize for the short hijack and promise not to devote anymore time to Burro by searching this thread. You know what they say, "When you argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"
My original intent was never to argue with you Voo. Maybe my original comment was an unnecessary attempt at being "witty" but it was not aimed at YOU alone. I did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings and honestly i think your reaction has been a bit extreme to say the least. You brought it too a very personal level and that speaks to your immaturity and extreme sensitivity. You dont want to be brought to my level?? You are the one calling me names. I am writing this to you Voo, as I am SURE you are still searching this thread for my comment.

If anyone else thought my OC was a personal attack on them and their manhood I sincerely apologize. And to the OP, I apologize as well, as I think your intent was to be helpful and not start a thread where children would get into playground fights.

Voo, at least we agree on one thing. This forum isnt the place to do this. If you feel the need to continue your hissy fit, feel free to message me.
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:18 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by sensibull

Sorry, but I don't agree with this example at all. Re-use does not equal theft, unless you literally stole the walking stick to begin with. Ask any honest artist (in any medium) and they will tell you that they "borrowed" all sorts of ideas, techniques, etc. from their influences.

One of my hobbies is refinishing broken antique Philco radios and retrofitting them with discarded computer parts. Am I stealing from Philco?

Is a sculptor who works with found objects stealing?

Is a collage artist stealing?

Was Andy Warhol nothing but a thief? The Parthenon was made with materials from a previous temple. Were its builders thieves? I could go on forever.
In my example, you did steal the stick. It wasn't yours, you didn't get permission, you didn't pay for it, you stole it. Why is it so hard for people to understand that if you take a graphic that somebody spends 10 hours making and use it without permission or compensation, it's the exact same thing as taking a tangible product that somebody spent 10 hours making.

It doesn't matter at all how you use it. If you don't get permission and pass it off as yours, you have stolen regardless of your application.

And yes, Andy Warhol IMHO did steal. It takes nothing away from his talent. And in the end, the original owners gave implicit permission because they were better off because of what he'd done. Campbell's had a lawsuit drawn up that many legal scholars believed they could win, but they realized that while he had trademark infringement, they gained more as an American icon through his work than as a victorious lawsuit winner.

Your radio example doesn't apply because you mentioned these were found and discarded parts. Discarded implies dissolving of ownership. Therefore, if you use them, it's no longer theft. Those parts you use that you don't find, I'm sure you pay for.

The issue isn't application, it's origin. If you didn't make it from scratch, any piece you acquired elsewhere needs compensation or at least permission.
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You guys joke around with this all you want, but let me tell you something: I tried making my own beer one time and wound up with herpes!


Primary: Billy Corrigan Ale, malted cider experiment, Optimator clone
Secondary: Sorachi Ace IPA
Bottled: Dark Lord Clone Imperial Stout, Winter 2010 Spiced Ale Ambassador Brown Ale, Michigan Berry pLambic
Kegged: Old Woodward ESB, Strawberry Blonde
On Deck: Honey brown ale, dry stout
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:27 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Burgs

The fishing pole example is insane. Completely disagree. Under that strange rationale - all innovation is theft and all innovators should feel terrible.
If they take something and actually use a piece of it in their "innovation" without compensation, permission, or credit, yes they should feel terrible because they are thieves.
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Originally Posted by StuporMan View Post
You guys joke around with this all you want, but let me tell you something: I tried making my own beer one time and wound up with herpes!


Primary: Billy Corrigan Ale, malted cider experiment, Optimator clone
Secondary: Sorachi Ace IPA
Bottled: Dark Lord Clone Imperial Stout, Winter 2010 Spiced Ale Ambassador Brown Ale, Michigan Berry pLambic
Kegged: Old Woodward ESB, Strawberry Blonde
On Deck: Honey brown ale, dry stout
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:44 PM   #49
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\And yes, Andy Warhol IMHO did steal. It takes nothing away from his talent. And in the end, the original owners gave implicit permission because they were better off because of what he'd done. Campbell's had a lawsuit drawn up that many legal scholars believed they could win, but they realized that while he had trademark infringement, they gained more as an American icon through his work than as a victorious lawsuit winner.
baaaaahahahhaha!

can i get a citation please? oh, the citation can't be, "A$$, My"

campbell's never wanted to sue warhol, in fact, they commissioned a painting from him

also, you're stealing malt because you didn't grow and malt the barley yourself and are using it to make beer.
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:55 PM   #50
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baaaaahahahhaha!

can i get a citation please? oh, the citation can't be, "A$$, My"

campbell's never wanted to sue warhol, in fact, they commissioned a painting from him

also, you're stealing malt because you didn't grow and malt the barley yourself and are using it to make beer.
Now you're just intentionally trying to miss the point. If you don't create something yourself, and somebody else currently has claim to it, you must either (a) pay for it, (b) ask permission to use it, or (c) give credit to somebody else in order to use it. It obviously depends on the situation (tangible good, academic idea, or a photo) but there's no way around it.

If you want to call BS on the Warhol statement, be my guest. It came from a business law class dealing with trademaek infringement in college 10 years ago. I have no citation to provide (as i dont memorize textbook names 10 years after the fact) so if in your mind that in any way validates your argument, so be it. Congratulations! Campbell's did commission a painting from him of their dried soup and donated real soup cans for his gallery - 25 years after he did his first painting of soup, during which, pop culture advertising proved he was an asset. Business is about money. Who cares what he did as long as it makes me richer.
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You guys joke around with this all you want, but let me tell you something: I tried making my own beer one time and wound up with herpes!


Primary: Billy Corrigan Ale, malted cider experiment, Optimator clone
Secondary: Sorachi Ace IPA
Bottled: Dark Lord Clone Imperial Stout, Winter 2010 Spiced Ale Ambassador Brown Ale, Michigan Berry pLambic
Kegged: Old Woodward ESB, Strawberry Blonde
On Deck: Honey brown ale, dry stout
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