Yooper's Oktoberfest

I'm taking my first crack at a lager, and I decided to go with the recipe that well-known and much beloved poster Yooper has listed in her recipe data-base.

The brew day seemed to go well, but I missed the taget OG of 1.054 by four points (I came in at 1.050). I suspect I had a little more water than called for. I did the steps for the mash and almost got them exactly right. I had prepared a very large starter - starting with 1 liter and then stepping it up twice to get to 4 litters. All in all it was a good brew-day and I think this is going well. It's been fermenting at about 54 F (although it varies by a couple of degrees throughout the day, either side).

I brewed it Sunday. Today (4 days later) the gravity is down to 1.022. I tasted it and there is a slight flavor that might be described as butterscotch, although since that's what I'm "looking for" it may be my imagination playing tricks on me. It definitely seems to have an "oily" texture if that means anything - kinda like olive oil.

Given the slight butterscotch flavor though, I've decided to move the fermenter from my basement up to the main house area, that is currently an ambient 72 F for a diecytal rest (sp? - or whatever that word is).

Am I correct to move it up here, and if so, is this the correct time to do it? And if so... for how long (until it's done fermenting and then lager it...?).

Hopefully someone with more experience can confirm or correct what I'm doing here.

Thanks!

Sounds to me like you're doing it right. Some folks will tell you to slowly take the temperature up for a d-rest, but I always do what you did, just move it to room temp. Just let it go until it's done. Some will tell you to cold crash and lager, then bottle or keg. But I just bottle right after fermentation, condition 3 weeks, and then lager in the bottles. My way is apparently not the best, but it works for me. I'll let the professionals take it from here

thanks! I probably will lager it in the fermenter although my limited logic thus far doesn't see why it would be any different to lager it before or after you bottle it.

Lagers take longer to ferment so I wouldn't move it yet. It's just not done as there is still sugar to eat. They won't eat the butterscotch until the sugar is gone. I leave Lagers for two weeks at 50 degrees and then raise to 60 max for 3 days.

Surely Yooper will chime in and set us all straight, but I was under the impression that there needs to be sugar present for the d-rest to work, since the yeast needs to be actively fermenting in order to eat the diacetyl they produce.

I just read through a portion of the forum thread that is attached to the recipe. It says (or rather 'she' says) to do the d-rest at about 75% through fermentation. Without calculating, 1.020--1.024 seems the perfect ballpark range to do the d-rest.

One thing I'm looking to find out, and I haven't yet seen it, is what is the ideal temp to do a d-rest? My basement is low 50s with windows open... mid 60s with window closed.... and upstairs is 72... all ambient temps. That's about the extent of my temp control, so those are my choices.

[double post]

If you have a place to store it at 58F that may be a better compromise option. Diacetyl will be consumed at that temp, without the sugar consumption by the yeast throwing off flavors that you don't want. 72F is too warm for my tastes.

BTW, I published this little write up on my new random thought blog: "Bottle Lagering"....Lagering the beer after getting it into bottles for those who are interested in such things...its the way I handle lagers.

http://tgmba.thegreatmaibockaddict.com/?p=11

Also, I believe the rule of thumb is to begin a d-rest when fermentation is 75-80% complete. While 4 days does seem short for that much fermentation, according to your gravity it would seem your timing is perfect for a d-rest Andy.

Most German Breweries ferment lagers at around 45f then once the beer is about 75% done they do a D-rest at 62f until FG is reached. Then bring the beer down to 30f over a few days and lager a week for ever 10 points of gravity.

ok, thanks for the input everyone. The ideal temp range for the yeast (WL-Marzen/Oktoberfest) is 52-58 and I hit around 54-ish (unfortunately that's ambient temp though, so my ferment temps were probably around the ceiling of this yeast's profile. I too was surprised that it came down to 1.022 in 4-days, but having done a 4 liter yeast starter (on a 5 gallon batch) in which I stepped it up twice from 1 liter, cold-crashing and decanting at each step, and then decanting the final 4 liters down to 1 liter... it may explain why it took off quite quickly. I noticed while pitching the yeast that it looked quite thick and creamy. I didn't use a stir pale though, but rather the method of wrist-action agitation each time I walked past.

So, given the info above, I think I'll put it back down to the basement and close the windows. Mid 60s seems like a reasonable compromise thus far for the d-rest on this brew. Unless someone suggests otherwise, of course...

Thanks everyone for chipping in. It's much appreciated!

A good read is

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381829/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Thanks for the reading recommendations. It's funny that since I've started brewing I've generally gone off lagers. And yet I'm brewing one now and I'm guessing that it'll be one of the hardest to perfect.

andy6026 said:

Thanks for the reading recommendations. It's funny that since I've started brewing I've generally gone off lagers. And yet I'm brewing one now and I'm guessing that it'll be one of the hardest to perfect.

Click to expand...

At the end of the day you'll still have beer and I bet it's better than half of what is on the market.

Good Luck and let us know how it taste!

I'd do the diacetyl rest now, since your gravity is well in the ballpark of when to do one.

72 is a bit warmer than I'd like, but if that's all you have then that will have to do. I'd rather see 65ish as a high temperature.

As long as you detect any "oily" or slickness in the mouthfeel, continue the diacteyl rest as it will get worse with lagering. In small amounts, diacetyl presents as an oily or slick mouthfeel, or on the tongue or teeth. In larger amounts, it will start to taste like butter. In huge amounts, it will scream BUTTERSCOTCH at you- so it's best to try to fix in when the amount is relatively small!

Great! Thanks for the advice and also for the excellent description of diacetyl. I wasn't sure exactly what I was looking for in that taste, but now I'm confident that there's definitely enough diacetyl in the sample I tasted to warrant a d-rest, but not enough that it was screaming butterscotch.

It is now back in the basement at a temp of around 65, after having briefly shown it what the upstairs looks like for an hour or two.

Thanks again!

***thread update***

So my fermentation appears to be stuck at 1.024. I've moved it up to the main part of the house that has an ambient temp of 72 and given the fermenter a bit of agitation.

I'm not sure why it's stuck. I pitched plenty of yeast - I stepped up a starter twice, from 1 liter up to 4 liters, and then decanted those down to 1 liter to pitch. The yeast was not expired. I'm thinking that I may have buggered the mash. For the second step that needed to hit 158, I originally hit about 165 and it took a minute or two of adding cold water and stirring to get it down to the proper temp.

If anyone can offer advice on what to do, or why this likely happened it would be much appreciated. Thanks!

You could take a cup of the beer and do a fast ferment test. That will tell you if you have more fermentable sugars or not.

Take a cup of beer and put it on your stirplate in a beaker or flask stir the co2 out. Then put a heaping teaspoon of bread yeast in and let it ferment out over a couple days. Cold crash it in the fridge the take a hydrometer reading. If it is close to the reading you are getting then it isn't a stuck ferment.

I was wrong on the gravity reading. Seems my hydrometer crapped out. I took a reading on another beer and it was exactly the same. I thought that strange so I pulled out a second hydrometer and sure enough it's a different reading. I'll have to take another sample of the Oktoberfest, but I'm expecting a different reading.

IThat is really odd I have never had a bad hydrometer. But it is always a good idea to do a fast ferment test.

I'm not sure how it's gone bad either. I've examined it thoroughly and I can't see any cracks. And yet in samples of two different beers it gave the exact same reading, while the other other hydrometer gave a different reading.

Either it's possessed by a ghost or... cough... cough... (I so hate to admit this might be the case so I'll write it really tiny...)

I didn't have enough beer in the tube and it was resting on the bottom... but then it would have to have had the same error for two different batches and have deviated by exactly the same amount

I've done that, but realized my mistake before asking on HBT

Have you rechecked the original hydrometer in plain water?

there's definitely some good advice here - I'm getting ready to brew a few lagers, and have been reading up on it. I didn't know what "fast fermenting" referred to, and since I'm probably not the only one to not know, I found this website that helped me understand the why's.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fast_Ferment_Test

So I did a water test on the hydrometer, and indeed it was out by 4 points (1.004). So I took another test of the oktoberfest with my second (working thermometer) and it measured 1.015. So I've put it in the fridge to lager. I gave the sample a taste and any oily-slick texture is no longer there.

My only concern now (and it's probably rather trite) is that it seems a bit darker than I expected.

I'm glad I found out now that the first hydrometer I had was out of whack. It's probably given me a few misreadings on a few batches. I guess I'll have to pick up another one for backup, although I have yet to physically break one... knock on wood.