Are there degrees of sanitation?

Sorry if this has been discussed, seems like it would have been, but I couldn't find any.

For a batch of beer is it either sanitary or infected? or can it be more sanitary and lead to a better product? It seems like as long as it isn't infected, anything else that might be in there won't matter within reason.

All the threads about how to make better beer always say sanitation, but I don't see how sanitizing "better" than I am now is going to affect the taste of my brew. If I am getting infections of course, but people seem to be saying that sanitation is the most important thing to good homebrew. I might be wrong but I see it as a part of the whole process, that must be there in order to even start, but once you have it covered it is sort of done with.

Thoughts?

all or nothing.... infected or not (well, not infected by anyhting other than the yeast you intentionally infect it with).

Well, that said, there is also "Contamination" to worry about. Infection is having something alive in your beer that you don't want there. Contamination is having something not alive in your beer that you don't want there.

If you use an aluminum pot, get it all oxidized, and then brew in it, your lack of sanitary equipment won't infect the beer... it will contaminate it with Aluminum Oxide - and give it a metallic taste.

So, cleaner is better to avoid contamination, but as long as enough bacteria is killed (you can never kill everything) you will prevent infection.

Yes. Available at most any University.

Disinfection - kill or inhibit microorganisms to a certain degree
Sanitation - kill microorganisms to non-threatening levels
Sterilization - kill all microorganisms

There are specific kill rates for these, but I can't recall them.

These were my thoughts as well, but as I was searching around trying to find out how to make my good beer even better, everyone was saying sanitation as the number one most important thing. Glad to hear that if I'm not getting infections I am doing it right, and don't need to change anything.

Well, that said, there is also "Contamination" to worry about. Infection is having something alive in your beer that you don't want there. Contamination is having something not alive in your beer that you don't want there.



Thats kinda what i thought people were referring to in other posts, but I would imagine it would have to be a lot of something in there to make it bad. I make sure everything is clean to the eye, then rinse it once more, and then I go ahead and sanitize everything, so it all seems to be pretty clean.

its sanitized or it isn't.

but when its infected, there are definitely 'degrees' of severity. I had one infected batch that was funky but drinkable (some kinda brett infection).

tasted someone else's batch that had something brett-like wrong with it, and you could barely swallow the sip.

Sanitization is not the first thing that can make your beer better, it's a necessary step in every beer that will prevent you from having something downright undrinkable on your hands. Most people freak out too much about sanitization. If you have clean equipment and soak it in iodophor, you're good to go. I don't know of any way to make it more sanitized than that, nor have I ever found a need to have it more sanitized than that.

The actual number one thing you can do to make your beer better is to take loving care of your yeast. That means pitching enough, keeping it at the right temperature, and giving it enough time to finish its job.

Sanitation is very important/critical post boil of the wort. Once the wort has been cooled (or is being cooled) then anything new touching it needs to be sanitized. This is why you put your IC into the wort while it's still boiling. It's also why you don't sanitize your mash tun before using it. It is why you sanitize the fermenter, as well as any tools you use to move the wort once cooled. Once the brew is in the bottle/keg, you don't need to worry, as much, about sanitizing things. But, you should make sure the keg couplings/posts are sanitized before you connect them up, and such.

So, IMO, PROPER sanitation is a very important aspect of brewing. Just know when you need to have it in full effect and when it doesn't apply (yet)...

GilaMinumBeer said:

Yes. Available at most any University.

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I would change that to read "... after the freshman year."

Wakadaka said:

For a batch of beer is it either sanitary or infected? or can it be more sanitary and lead to a better product? It seems like as long as it isn't infected, anything else that might be in there won't matter within reason.

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I can see where you're going, and I can see where the rest of the responses are going.

The truth is, you are never going to have *PERFECT* sanitation and disinfection. EVER.

I have done greater and lesser amounts of disinfecting and sanitation, and usually get karma for it -- the more I do, the better the final result.

Don't forget, though, the hops will generally counteract most of the stuff that will infect a beer, and if you leave it too long, Acetobacter will invade, and give you malt vinegar.

I've had infections, and thought I'd had some infections, and it generally has to do with thoroughness of cleanliness. You don't need it per se, but it does help.

EPA regulations for sanatize, disinfect, and sterilize: 99.9%, 99.99%, and 100% kill rates, respectively.

That's according to Murl Landman on Basic Brewing Radio 3-22-07 ~14:30 in.

Malintent said:

all or nothing.... infected or not (well, not infected by anyhting other than the yeast you intentionally infect it with).

Well, that said, there is also "Contamination" to worry about. Infection is having something alive in your beer that you don't want there. Contamination is having something not alive in your beer that you don't want there.

If you use an aluminum pot, get it all oxidized, and then brew in it, your lack of sanitary equipment won't infect the beer... it will contaminate it with Aluminum Oxide - and give it a metallic taste.

So, cleaner is better to avoid contamination, but as long as enough bacteria is killed (you can never kill everything) you will prevent infection.

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Going to have to disagree with you here. Infection is when a living organism is invaded by another organism. Contamination is when a non-living organism (beer) is invaded by a living organism.

The first step is making sure everything is CLEAN, otherwise anything short of sterilizing is not going to be affective. I had thought I was being good at cleaning my system, routinely running hot PBW through after brewing (then clean water rinse). Then I would recirculate Starsan for 10 min on brewing day. Then I had some infections. I finally took all of my tubing and connections apart and I was a bit shocked at all of the crud in the nooks and crannies. Particularly around all of the connectors. Now every 3-4 brews I take it all apart for a thorough cleaning

I brewed with a guy last week that never uses sanitizer. It shocked me when I learned that. He does clean his equipment after use, but does not sanitize before using it. He says he has never had an infection and estimates that he has bottled 2,500 bottles to date. He doesn't even use a bottle brush, just rinses and reuses his bottles. Does it affect the flavor of his beer? I'm not sure. His beer was not very good, but he is using really old ingredients, reuses yeast perpetually (and doesn't wash it) and cuts corners in other ways. So it is hard to say how much (if at all) lack of sanitizing is affecting the flavor of his beer.

theredben said:

Going to have to disagree with you here. Infection is when a living organism is invaded by another organism. Contamination is when a non-living organism (beer) is invaded by a living organism.

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so if you were to accidentally pour a gallon of bleach into your wort, you wouldn't consider it contaminated? what would you call that, a bad choice in spice selection?

Malintent said:

so if you were to accidentally pour a gallon of bleach into your wort, you wouldn't consider it contaminated? what would you call that, a bad choice in spice selection?

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I would call it stupidity...

From my understanding, infection is when a harmful biological (viral or bacterial in nature) gets into a host organism... Contamination can be from a range of sources, but typically include non-living organisms, or macro-biological. Such as a slug, insect, rat, getting into your brew/wort would be a contamination. Bleach, or other chemicals that are not safe for brew, would be a contamination.

MaltMonster, sounds like that guy needs to get some information on how to make at least good brew... He might have never gotten an infection (not completely sure he hasn't, since other things could be masking it to him) but as you pointed out, his brew isn't good. You would think that someone who's made that much home brew would know how to make really great home brew. Seems like he's happy making stuff that makes BMC look good. While I can completely understand wanting to reduce costs, I won't do it when it will make for inferior brew. IMO, proper sanitation is an important part of home brewing. Sure, they didn't do it as we do hundreds of years ago, but they didn't have access to things we do today.

MaltMonster said:

I brewed with a guy last week that never uses sanitizer. It shocked me when I learned that. He does clean his equipment after use, but does not sanitize before using it. He says he has never had an infection and estimates that he has bottled 2,500 bottles to date. He doesn't even use a bottle brush, just rinses and reuses his bottles. Does it affect the flavor of his beer? I'm not sure. His beer was not very good, but he is using really old ingredients, reuses yeast perpetually (and doesn't wash it) and cuts corners in other ways. So it is hard to say how much (if at all) lack of sanitizing is affecting the flavor of his beer.

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You can take a grotesquely infected wort and boil it for a while to remove the infection. It will still taste like ****, though... you haven't removed the contamination of bacterial byproducts.

Yes, his beer tastes bad because he just doesn't care enough to make good beer. one would wonder why even bother.