Is a starter necessary?

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yusky2

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i know this question has been answered before. is it necessary to create a starter for white labs or wyeast liquid yeasts? i know alot of people talk about doing it but both of their websites say it is not required. i don't really wanna make a starter if i don't have to. what could happen if i don't?

thanks.
 
Are starters absolutely necessary? no.
Will your beer benefit from healthy fermentation because you used a starter? yes.

Using a starter means higher cell counts which leads to a more efficient fermentation and consequently a better beer.
 
I'm not the absolute yeast-starter authority, but my research has led me to believe that you will get some benefit from making and using a starter. But I don't think you absolutely HAVE to make one. You're probably going to get a ton of replies from brewers who say they never make one and their beer is A-OK. Other will swear by the starter...

My understanding is that making a starter gives your yeasts more of a "fighting chance" by allowing them to multiply to a really healthy level of numbers before they are added to your wort. They are going to multiply either way, but by making a starter they don't have to waste time multiplying in the wort. If they can be allowed to get straight to fermenting then other trace amounts of bacteria (or other badies) won't have a chance to multiply and gain a solid hold within your wort. Just like sending more soldiers into battle gives them a better shot at taking the hill, your yeasts will benifit from already having greater numbers.

The other reason a starter is good is that it gives you a chance to test that the yeasts are beer-worthy before you pitch. Granted, it doesn't happen often...but if you pitch a bad batch of yeast then you won't know it for a while. Then your wort is sitting while you scramble to get another batch of yeasts in there before it's too late (unless you had the forethought to buy two batches of yeast). By making a starter, you remove all doubt.

Pros, please correct me if I got that wrong...

-Tripod
 
Think of it like this.
If your going into battle, do you want 100 of your best buddies or would you like to have 10,000 of your best buddies watching your back?
You decide
JJ
 
Also by making a starter, you can save some of the yeast and make another starter for your next batch.
 
i know this question has been answered before. is it necessary to create a starter for white labs or wyeast liquid yeasts? i know alot of people talk about doing it but both of their websites say it is not required. i don't really wanna make a starter if i don't have to. what could happen if i don't?

thanks.

There is no blanket answer.

It really depends on what you're brewing. The bigger the beer, the more benefit to a starter. My rule is anything 1.045 and below...no starter required.

If you don't want to mess with a starter (I rarely do), just bring it to room temp a few hours before and pitch it. You'll add about 6-8 hours to ferment time...but no degradation will occur.
 
I'm not going to lie....I get lazy and skip the starter on occassion, but I do feel guilty when I do.
I've broken it down with a microscope and some calculations. Even those fantastic White Labs vials that I use religiously don't have the amount of yeast cells you really need to do a five gallon batch of beer justice. You would need four of those vials to get the appropriate amount of yeast cells. It's twice as bad with those powder yeast packets.
Can you make good beer without a yeast starter? Sure, but for a little more effort, you are increasing productivity in your yeast and ensuring the right product for your beer.:cross:
 
As others have opined, yes and no. Check this to bear me out.

The rule of thumb is a certain number of active yeast cells per point of gravity per milliliter of wort. There are many reasons for this, as there are a number of flaws yeast can cause in the finished beer based on over- or under-pitching. Attention must be paid to how long the yeast has been sitting around - an old culture will have severely compromised viability. Also, attention must be paid to how the culture has been stored - temperature extremes are as bad as age. Call me a pessimist, but I always assume my yeast has been abused, just in case it has been!

Let's get practical.

A 1.050 wort requires ~185 billion active yeast cells for proper inoculation.

Dry: An 11g packet of dry yeast contains more than that number, so that doesn't need a starter; just rehydrate according to the instructions on the packet and pitch. Dry yeast is nowhere near as susceptible to temperature extremes as liquid cultures, and can be stored longer before viability becomes an issue.

White Labs: A vial of White Labs yeast contains, optimally, 140 billion cells. Unfortunately, that number is no longer reliable once the yeast is packed for shipment. Once it's shipped to the homebrew store, it's been shipped once - potentially exposing it to temperature extremes. Check the manufacture date on the package carefully. Significantly, the numbers, even when the culture is new, still require a starter for proper pitching. Thus, it's wise to always make a starter for beers over OG 1.037 when using White Labs yeasts, or buy two vials.

Wyeast: The "Activator" packs contain, according to Wyeast, "a minimum of 100 billion cells". What they really say is that each package contains 1.2 x 109 cells/ml. (That's 1.2 billion, by the by). No matter how you slice it, even the Activator pack is insufficient to inoculate a wort stronger than 1.026. The Propogator pack is even worse, with ~25 billion cells in a pristine pack. Thus, it's always wise to make a starter with Wyeast packages also or double-pitch.

Look - I'm not trying to scare you. I'm just giving you the numbers. Of course the manufacturers' websites are going to tell you what you read; do you really think they'd do otherwise? ;) But the numbers are the numbers.

Keep in mind that many brewers experience excellent results from simply using the packages of liquid yeast, regardless of what the numbers say. They pitch the packet and RDWHAHB. Maybe that'll work for you. I'm a little too OCD for that! :D If you don't want or are ill-equipped to make starters, don't despair! Just keep pitching as best you can. Oh, and make good beer!

Cheers,

Bob
 
I don't always pitch a starter on small beers, but I think Yuri's recent post said the advantages best - Pitching a large starter into properly temperature controlled wort can keep any off flavors from being produced. This will allow your beer to be drinkable much faster.

Your other option is time, let it sit longer in the fermenter, and condition longer in the bottle/keg and you can achieve the same results. (Until you get to a high ABV beer, then you have to do starters or double pitch)
 
I'm a little too OCD for that! :D If you don't want or are ill-equipped to make starters, don't despair! Just keep pitching as best you can. Oh, and make good beer...

I'm with you on that. I know I don't HAVE to go with a starter but I figure that the more varables I make an effort to control means less variables are left to chance. Even the ones that probably don't need my control.

At least by making a starter I don't have to worry about whether my yeast is good. One less thing to think about = one more homebrew to relax and enjoy...

-Tripod
 
You could just look at it as a five gallon starter, lol.

I'd just use dry yeast unless there is a need something more specific. I have only used liquid yeast once and I made a starter the way How to Brew says too do it. I probably was still under pitching and it took several hours longer to start bubbling than any of my other brews. I have some hefeweizen yeast coming and I want to do 10 gallons with it so I will use a larger starter.
 
dont be lazy...but yes....good beer comes about with patience and planning. And always a bit of luck and a starter helps the odds.
 
Can a lazy-A brewer like myself compensate with a high OG brew by simply re-hydrating and pitching twice as much dry yeast?

Yes - that is actually the correct way to pitch higher counts of dry yeast. I have read that its a bad idea to make dry yeast starters and that if you need more yeast just toss in 2 packs.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that a pack of dry yeast has way more cells than liquid yeast. A starter is not normally used with dry yeast for this reason.

Not when it comes to live, functional cells. I counted them myself on multiple samples.
 
Regarding the Wyeast Activator slap-packs: When you slap it and "activate" the bag, will the numbers of yeast increase from the stock level (assuming you let it sit for a few hours)?

I just brewed up my first batch last night, and used the Wyeast. Slapped the pack and let it roll for 12 hours before I pitched it (looked like it was going to explode at that point). My question is, the Oatmeal Stout I'm brewing has a listed initial gravity of 1.062. Was this single Activator grossly inadequate? Did the 12 hour activation time negate that somewhat?
 
Regarding the Wyeast Activator slap-packs: When you slap it and "activate" the bag, will the numbers of yeast increase from the stock level (assuming you let it sit for a few hours)?

I just brewed up my first batch last night, and used the Wyeast. Slapped the pack and let it roll for 12 hours before I pitched it (looked like it was going to explode at that point). My question is, the Oatmeal Stout I'm brewing has a listed initial gravity of 1.062. Was this single Activator grossly inadequate? Did the 12 hour activation time negate that somewhat?

The smack packs with the activator show activity, but don't increase cell count, from what I understand. Check out this site: Mr Malty Pitching Rate Calculator to see what kind of cell count you should have.

For ANY beer over 1.045 (maybe smaller) I'd use a starter, unless that yeast was so fresh it was made yesterday.
 
The smack packs with the activator show activity, but don't increase cell count, from what I understand. Check out this site: Mr Malty Pitching Rate Calculator to see what kind of cell count you should have.

For ANY beer over 1.045 (maybe smaller) I'd use a starter, unless that yeast was so fresh it was made yesterday.

The yeast was actually extremely fresh, the born on date was something like a week ago. Regardless, it's too late for me to do a starter culture, the deed has been done. Did I screw the pooch on this one? It's only been 12 hours and I have constant bubbling from the airlock (first saw activity at about 4 hours, first notable bubbles at 8), but I don't know if that's necessarily an indicator of A-Okay status.
 
The yeast was actually extremely fresh, the born on date was something like a week ago. Regardless, it's too late for me to do a starter culture, the deed has been done. Did I screw the pooch on this one? It's only been 12 hours and I have constant bubbling from the airlock (first saw activity at about 4 hours, first notable bubbles at 8), but I don't know if that's necessarily an indicator of A-Okay status.

No, it's ok. Sometimes it works just fine. That's just the way it is with liquid yeast. Even the manufacturer's websites will tell you that "pitchable" doesn't mean optimal cell counts. If it's fermenting, then you have no worries.
 
Thanks for allying my fears, YooperBrew, and also for the valuable advice. I have my eye on a starter kit from Northern Brew that I'll most likely be using next time around. I suppose I was lucky this time to have gotten an über-fresh packet of yeast, with potentially a higher than average count.
 
My starter that I made for my Belgian Trappist is 2 days old now. I am not ready to brew, so I threw it the fridge. Is it going to be okay in there?

By the way, I used a 1 litre PET bottle to make my starter. I drilled a hole through the top, corked it with a faucet grommet (looks like a stopper, but much smaller and red) and put my air-lock in. Pretty cool idea, I thought, for those Mr. Beer bottles that I've only used once.
 
Think of it like this.
If your going into battle, do you want 100 of your best buddies or would you like to have 10,000 of your best buddies watching your back?
You decide
JJ


I really don't get this but bear with me here as I will go with the science (biology)

The yeast cells will divide/multiply if they they have the right medium temp and food and they will continue to do that till there is not food and they will die off in the end when the sugar goes and the environment is changed.

As those cells multiplied from "100" to "10000" in 24hrs in the started the same they will multiply in the wort.

I personally see no difference in making a starter - might take 1, 2 extra days to start big deal. If in a hurry go ahead... it's just a head start that's all it is to it.
 
It is very cheap"insurance" for a good fermentation, requires little effort and cost, I always make a starter
 
I really don't get this but bear with me here as I will go with the science (biology)

The yeast cells will divide/multiply if they they have the right medium temp and food and they will continue to do that till there is not food and they will die off in the end when the sugar goes and the environment is changed.

As those cells multiplied from "100" to "10000" in 24hrs in the started the same they will multiply in the wort.

I personally see no difference in making a starter - might take 1, 2 extra days to start big deal. If in a hurry go ahead... it's just a head start that's all it is to it.

You are right, to a point. Yes, they will do in the batch of wort exactly what they will do in a starter. However, a starter is usually a very different environment. There is much more oxygen--if you're making your starters right--so the yeast is less stressed. Also, the ratio of yeast cells to wort is much closer so, once again, they are less stressed.

Chris White (of White Labs), in his book "Yeast," points out that the benefit from a starter is not merely number of yeast--yes they will reproduce in the wort--but is yeast health (pg 132). You make a starter so you will have a higher number of healthy battle ready yeast, not just a lot of weakened, battle scarred yeast that have been beat down by transit and storage conditions. The yeast you have grown in the starter are going to be healthier than the yeast that are produced in your wort.

Those who say, "I never use a starter and my beer is fine," are answering the wrong question. Instead of asking themselves "Can I make a good beer without a starter?" they should be asking "Will I make better beer with a starter?"

My experience was that I made really good beer for years and swore I wouldn't make a starter, because "Dammit, the pack says this is a pitchable amount!" However, when I started making an appropriate starter of healthy, well aerated yeast, I noticed the quality of my beer go way up. The stuff I was making before doesn't compare.
 
Planning to make Strong Scotch Ale and target OG is 1.085, and yeast is WLP028. My plan is to boil 2 pints w/0.5 cup of DME and pitch yeast in my 1000ml flask. I'll let sit (well will stir occassionally) for 24 hours, give or take. My questions...

1. WIll I have issues with the 2 pints being just under the narrow part of the flask?
2. If not, will that give me a sufficient yeast count? Or should I just buy another vial?
 
Planning to make Strong Scotch Ale and target OG is 1.085, and yeast is WLP028. My plan is to boil 2 pints w/0.5 cup of DME and pitch yeast in my 1000ml flask. I'll let sit (well will stir occassionally) for 24 hours, give or take. My questions...

1. WIll I have issues with the 2 pints being just under the narrow part of the flask?
2. If not, will that give me a sufficient yeast count? Or should I just buy another vial?

Assuming a batch size of 5.5g and 2 week old yeast, you are well under. It also appears you are not using a stir plate, but rather agitation. If I'm correct on all this, then you will be at ~188B cells, and need 319. With a 2nd vial you would come closer. See the calculator on Brewer's Friend. (and build a stir plate!) :)

As for flask size, that's close, but should be ok. I have a 2000ml flask for my starters and have never exceeded 1.5L.
 
That's kind of what I was thinking. And correct, I don't have a stir plate. I may just do another order and get an additional vial and while I'm at it get a bigger flask to be safe.

If I get an additional vial, could I pitch both vials in the same yeast starter? Actually if I get an additional flask I could probably do one in each.
 
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