squeezing grain bag is bad?

Williams 728
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You've all just been infected by zombies from 2010. They've been patiently awaiting your eventual return to this thread, and finally lured you into their trap. I would fear for my own survival, but having seen Zombieland and familiarized myself with the rules I feel I have a fighting chance.

Now where is my bowling ball... :drunk:
 
I been BIAB for past 2 years and squeezed my bag religiously to the last drop I could. I NEVER EVER had issue with tannins. Tannins are pH related issue rather than mechanical action. If your pH below 5.7 during mash you not extracting any tannins. People on first page who screams "do not do it!" talking out of their ass. I started competing this year. I get medals in every beer comp I enter and NOT one score sheet out of dozens I have returned mentions tannins, not one!
 
Yup another BIAB "squeezer" here. I do small 2 gallon batches and I don't squeeze as I found the grains are two hot for my hands, so I put the bag in a collander over my cooler/mashtun and using two coffee cups PRESS with all my 160lbs of body into the cups/grain and go for every last drip. No tannins in my beer.

IMGP0943.jpg
 
Ah, but the no-squeeze rule always refers to steeping and specialty grains and not mashing and base grains.

Not that it's not still bull****, it's just a different bull****.

I have *no* idea what the pH level of tap water and steeping grains is and I don't care (yet... for this purpose) because I know there is no way the pressure of my palm can possibly be a make or break point of tannin release.
 
I just bought some insulated rubber gloves and squeeze the bag out (steeping grains) over a BBQ grill (clean). What I've read is tannins occur when you get too hot in your steeping. If you keep your heat in the suggested range (150-155) should be ok.

Haven't had a problem since doing this. No off flavors, no sharp under or over tones. Just pretty good beer.
 
I squeezed the piss out of my bags when I was doing strictly extract with specialty grains and never had any problems. As Revvy mentioned early in the thread, what I found as "off" flavors early on was just a bad recipe or young beer. It definitely improved over time. To each their own
 
I brew All-Grain BIAB, and agree with what others have stated. For the first few batches, I stuck with the thought of not squeezing the bag because of tannins concern. Then I found a thread on here more specifically for BIAB brewers and how we are encouraged to squeeze every last drop out of the bag as tannins are released more because of temperature, not because of squeezing. So my last few BIAB batches, I squeezed the bag, then set it in another pot to collect the last drops while I awaited for the boil to start. This method has increased my efficiency and I notice no off or bitter tastes to the batches that I've squeezed versus the ones I did not except that in the ones I did squeeze had better efficiency. Others may have another experience, but I will squeeze the bags for my BIAB brews. I haven't noticed bitter or off tastes in my batches, including a cream ale, where tannin bitterness would easily come through, and there were no signs of that whatsoever.
 
lgilmore said:
I just bought some insulated rubber gloves and squeeze the bag out (steeping grains) over a BBQ grill (clean).
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Um, I don't understand what purpose the BBQ grill could possibly have...
 
I think he's referring to using the grate from the grill, similar to people using a colander.
 
How about the next time a squeezer on here squeezes they squeeze at least a bit of juice into 3 separate bowls - one at the beginning of the squeeze, one at the middle, one at the end few drops.

Then hit it with a PH test strip.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that unless you squeeze with a pneumatic press, temperature is not going to raise during a squeeze.
 
I love the two pages of people band-wagoning on the "squeezing is bad" train... without any actual input or evidence or anything. Thats why science will always win the day.. because so many people are ignorant!

The earth was flat one day... and you would be put to death for heresy if you objected. Don't beleive the hype!
 
Jayslay said:
The earth was flat one day... and you would be put to death for heresy if you objected.
Click to expand...

When and where were people put to death for heresy for not believing in a flat earth?
 
what if tannin extraction from squeezing is not the biggest problem with biab, what if it is all the fine particles and husk material that get squeezed through the cracks and crannies of the grain bag and end up in the boil? i suppose it depends on what type of bag you have also. i have done both squeezing and not squeezing, and havent really noticed a difference in the outcome of the beer, but its just a thought. the last couple brews i have not been squeezing just because its a pain in the arse, with little gain in efficiency.
 
Veedo said:
what if tannin extraction from squeezing is not the biggest problem with biab, what if it is all the fine particles and husk material that get squeezed through the cracks and crannies of the grain bag and end up in the boil? i suppose it depends on what type of bag you have also. i have done both squeezing and not squeezing, and havent really noticed a difference in the outcome of the beer, but its just a thought. the last couple brews i have not been squeezing just because its a pain in the arse, with little gain in efficiency.
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I would think all the fine particles and husk materials will just settle out over time just like any hop matter would. I think the amount of husk materials squeezed out wouldn't amount to anything that could change the outcome of the beer.
 
LogicBomb said:
Then hit it with a PH test strip.
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I'd prefer a pH meter. Those strips aren't very accurate...

Jayslay said:
I love the two pages of people band-wagoning on the "squeezing is bad" train... without any actual input or evidence or anything. Thats why science will always win the day.. because so many people are ignorant!
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When this thread was started ~3 years ago, that was the conventional wisdom...
 
AZ_IPA said:
When this thread was started ~3 years ago, that was the conventional wisdom...
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Was it? What changed? I'm always somewhat amused and somewhat confused when someone says beer making has changed as... well, the laws of physics haven't changed. Perhaps we have developed a *few* new technologies and perhaps we've done a few scientific backed experiments but for the most part the world of physics and chemistry and our understanding of the world of physics and chemistry and how it pertains to beer is pretty much the same as it always has been.

When I hear "it was conventional wisdom three years ago" I hear "We were talking out of our asses three years ago" and when I hear "we were talking out of our asses three years ago" I hear "We are still talking out of our asses today".

We knew then that tannins are released at high temperatures at high pH balances. To say adding pressure can release tannins is bull**** now and it was bull**** three years ago.
 
woozy said:
Was it? What changed? I'm always somewhat amused and somewhat confused when someone says beer making has changed as... well, the laws of physics haven't changed. Perhaps we have developed a *few* new technologies and perhaps we've done a few scientific backed experiments but for the most part the world of physics and chemistry and our understanding of the world of physics and chemistry and how it pertains to beer is pretty much the same as it always has been.

When I hear "it was conventional wisdom three years ago" I hear "We were talking out of our asses three years ago" and when I hear "we were talking out of our asses three years ago" I hear "We are still talking out of our asses today".

We knew then that tannins are released at high temperatures at high pH balances. To say adding pressure can release tannins is bull**** now and it was bull**** three years ago.
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Notice how I said "conventional wisdom" not laws of physics.

Just like conventional wisdom back then was that a 1 week primary and 2 week secondary led to clearer beer than a 1 week primary (ignoring the fact that a 3 week primary produces as clear, if not clearer, beer).

There's more mainstream science available now, so you can't as easily get away with talking out your ass now as you could then. :p

Plus there's a lot more brewing books available now than just Papzain's old stuff and Palmer's v1 How to Brew...
 
Palmer refuted the the need for a secondary in his first edition and no-where in his book does he say not to squeeze. Talking out of your ass is talking out of your ass whether you call it "conventional wisdom" or not.

By the way "conventional wisdom" *now* says pitching dry yeast dry (not rehydrating) means absorbing wort through cell walls and killing half your yeast and seriously underpitching. Verified evidence through expermiment and observation? None. Zero.

We're still talking out of our asses we're still getting away with it..
 
Jayslay said:
I love the two pages of people band-wagoning on the "squeezing is bad" train... without any actual input or evidence or anything. Thats why science will always win the day.. because so many people are ignorant!

The earth was flat one day... and you would be put to death for heresy if you objected. Don't beleive the hype!
Click to expand...

I don't think I've seen conclusive evidence for either side (might have missed it), and I'm not going to trust someone tasting beer with their tongue for tannin detection. It looks like someone in chemistry could easily do a KOH test for the presence of tannins in wort (see wikipedia below).

According to wikipedia, tannin extraction can be accelerated with increased temperature and pH, but they're still water soluble, and they'd still probably leach out if they sat in room temperature water long enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin#cite_note-Hagerman1988-26

For me, I don't think there's enough tannin on my grains to care if it all ends up in my beer. Off to squeeze my bag...
 
woozy said:
Palmer refuted the the need for a secondary in his first edition and no-where in his book does he say not to squeeze. Talking out of your ass is talking out of your ass whether you call it "conventional wisdom" or not.

By the way "conventional wisdom" *now* says pitching dry yeast dry (not rehydrating) means absorbing wort through cell walls and killing half your yeast and seriously underpitching. Verified evidence through expermiment and observation? None. Zero.

We're still talking out of our asses we're still getting away with it..
Click to expand...

You can argue the results, but here's one experiment...

http://seanterrill.com/2011/04/01/dry-yeast-viability/
 
After reading this thread I plan on squeezing as much flavor out of the bag for all brews going forward. I left some sugar behind I think in my last brew and didn't hit my gravity targets (didn't sparge either though). I prefer the idea of getting as much of the flavor and sugar out of the grain as possible.

I will add a note on the astringency side, I made the nutcastle brown ale recipe and accidently hit 180 degrees on the grain temp when soaking and the beer was astringent for a month or 2 after bottling. Then it aged out and was fine.
 
ElKabong said:
wish i had read this thread before, cause i squeezed the bag!! :(
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The main point to be gleaned from reading this thread is that there should be no regrets for having squeezed the bag, as no harm to your beer would likely result, and that any foregone squeezing out of a misplaced fear of tannin extraction would've only resulted in missed opportunities to liberate more of the sweet, sugary goodness from your wort than what was actually achieved.
 
woozy said:
When and where were people put to death for heresy for not believing in a flat earth?
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You may have caught me in a bad quote. Giordano Bruno was convicted of heresy in the Roman inqusition and burned at the stake for beleiving..get this... that the sun is actually just a star, one of many. Blasphemy!
A similar charge of heresy befell Gallileo Galilei.
You can question-troll me if you want, my simple point being the bandwagon always seems right until people reallize its wrong, generally through science. I guess its hard for a mob of people to beleive anything unless the science is shown to all, or a promminent brewer speaks his mind and people beleive him/her.

Woozy, you do also make a good point though, always question everything someone presents as fact, as you have shown me!

A very good response to the question of tannin extraction can be found on this page of Mr. Wizard, the second reply: http://byo.com/stories/item/1264-preventing-beer-slime--reducing-tannins-but-not-flavor-mr-wizard

There is a scientific assay to measure tannins through a process with a spectrophotometer.. as per James F. Harbertson and Douglas O. Adams of UC DAVIS http://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/adams/tannin/feclass.pdf

And another nice paper expaining tannins from the Uni of Rome http://www.aidic.it/icheap10/webpapers/410Capparucci.pdf

Finally, I would like to say this. I brewed a partial mash Hefeweizen a few months ago. I did a triple decoction, bringing the mash portion to a full boil. I also pressed the bag after removing it, tea-bagged it, and squeezed some more. Not a single hint of any astringency.. and that helps me to beleive that tannin extraction is more about PH in combination with high temps...as I had temps at 220F and no issues.
 
To whom asked Grill = Grate.. much like soda = pop.... maybe just different parts of the country. ...

The grill/grate is to set on top of the kettle to set the grain bag on to drain back into the kettle. It also allows me a firm surface to press against that allows for wort to run through.

Started using the grill/grate a while ago as the grain bag gets a bit heavy sometimes.
 
Jayslay said:
You may have caught me in a bad quote. Giordano Bruno was convicted of heresy in the Roman inqusition and burned at the stake for beleiving..get this... that the sun is actually just a star, one of many. Blasphemy!
A similar charge of heresy befell Gallileo Galilei.
You can question-troll me if you want, my simple point being the
Click to expand...

The "Myth of the Flat Earth" is one of my pet peeves. Not entirely *sure* why it's one of my pet peeves but it is. "In the middle ages people believed the earth was flat" is simply not true. The classical greeks had determined that the world was spherical and had even determined it's size and the european scholars of middle ages fully accepted that.

Christopher Columbus of the "Christopher Columbus proved the earth was round" fame was actually a bit of idiot and a whacko. He had a really *stupid* and wrong belief that the world was tapered like a pear and that in the northern lattitudes sailing half way around the world would only be a few thousand miles instead of the dozen of thousands of miles the learned scholars thought it would be. And he was dead wrong and the learned scholars were right. He sailed a few thousand miles, hit a huge honking undiscovered continent, assumed it was asia even though he had gone less than a third of the distance, and the rest was history.

That's the only thing I'm objecting to. People were burned for heresy for being right and not adhering to superstition all the time. But the "flat earth" was simply never a tenet of the church.
 
And the ancient Polynesians proved the world was not flat as they colonized just about every island in the central to south pacific.
 
If I may get back on topic for a moment...
In my last batch, I squeezed and sparged my brew bag until the sparge water was clear. I got 88% efficiency. It's still fermenting, but if I remember, I shall report back about tannins.
 
All I know is that I've brewed about 10 batches so far and 8 of them were fantastic... the 2 that I didn't care for... (an amber, and a 2 Hearted clone) were both squeezed.

I won't be squeezing anymore! :mug:
 
DonB said:
All I know is that I've brewed about 10 batches so far and 8 of them were fantastic... the 2 that I didn't care for... (an amber, and a 2 Hearted clone) were both squeezed.

I won't be squeezing anymore! :mug:
Click to expand...

Unless you have done a controlled experiment with the same recipe and process, except for squeeze vs. no-squeeze, your observations do not allow supportable conclusions to be drawn. Brew however you want, but don't try to pass your experience off as evidence of anything.

Brew on :mug:
 

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