Should I upgrade yeast?

I have been buying my extract kits from midwestsupplies.com. I have been buying the kits with the standard munton's dry yeast. Most of them have turned out pretty good. I know different yeast strains give off different flavors. Will I benefit much with an upgraded yeast, for using a extract kit?

Julohan said:

I have been buying my extract kits from midwestsupplies.com. I have been buying the kits with the standard munton's dry yeast. Most of them have turned out pretty good. I know different yeast strains give off different flavors. Will I benefit much with an upgraded yeast, for using a extract kit?

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In this man's opinion, I have had success with both white labs liquid yeast and the typical dry yeast and I can't say definitively that one is superior over the other. I guess it depends on your palate and how demanding you are of your final product. I think a well nurtured liquid yeast will yield a better end product, but that's not to say you can't get a good beer out of a rehydrated dry yeast. I'm sure others will have different opinions.

This is a tricky question to answer. You can upgrade the yeast if you want, but for most clean ales the Munton's work fine as you have experienced. If you are brewing a beer like a hefeweizen then getting liquid yeast is recommended as much of the flavor of the beer is from the yeast. So if the beer is supposed to get flavors from the yeast then you should upgrade, and if not then dry yeast is fine.

Ed

With some beer types you'll want to use a liquid yeast to get the best results, but many can be made perfectly fine with dry. Some people only use dry yeast exclusively.

But considering the upgrade to liquid is only a few dollars per batch you might as well give it a try for yourself and see what you think. You might find that it's not worth the time/money, or you could end up experiencing a whole new level of flavor from your brews and decide to stick with it.

SmugMug said:

In this man's opinion, I have had success with both white labs liquid yeast and the typical dry yeast and I can't say definitively that one is superior over the other. I guess it depends on your palate and how demanding you are of your final product. I think a well nurtured liquid yeast will yield a better end product, but that's not to say you can't get a good beer out of a rehydrated dry yeast. I'm sure others will have different opinions.

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I exclusively use White Labs, and I have to say that their product is outstanding. I also wash my yeast to keep the cost down, I would say that will be the largest factor between liquid and dry yeasts, cost.

Many have had great results with S-04 and S-05, Notty etc.. but like Ed stated certain styles such as Belgians, Hefeweizens, Witbiers, Kölsch etc... require the proper yeast to stay true to the style.

If we're going to generalize, I wouldn't determine what yeast strain to use by whether you're doing AG or extract. I'd say it depends on the style of beer you're shooting for. If you're going for an English or American pale ale to stout, then I think your current dry yeast is good. You can even experiment with other dry yeasts to see how others are at attenuation and imparting any flavors. IMO, it's more Belgian and specialty beers that might need a particular flavor profile you get from a particular liquid yeast strain.

I used to use White Labs exclucivley. Now I use dry unless there is a spacific yeast strain i need that is not available dry.

I'm currently using WLP029 for an altbier clone, because I want as close to a specific flavor as I can get. If I weren't concerned over trying to make this beer a close clone, then I would have opted for a dry yeast. I guess what I'm saying is the same thing you guys are: certain styles gain more flavor from the yeast and that's when the liquid yeast would be the better option. If all I was after was a typical alt style, I don't think that I would have worried much over the yeast since you can achieve it with either.

If you have a lot of control on the temperature you ferment at, then messing with yeast isn't worth it (unless you're brewing a belgian or other specialty beer as mentioned above). If you're using a fruity yeast and want to brew a dryer beer, just ferment a bit cooler. And vice versa, if you want a fruity beer, just ferment a bit warmer. If you're like me though, and don't have any control over temperature, than it starts becoming important to shop around for a yeast strain that will give you the characteristics you want at the temperature you can provide it with.

What is the difference between a yeast propagator, activator, dry, and pitchable tube? Dry yeast I have used, not fully understand though. I don't understand why I need to put it in cooled boil water before pitching. I assume pitchable yeast is the yeast that is in liquid form and you jut pitch in right away.

Julohan said:

What is the difference between a yeast propagator, activator, dry, and pitchable tube? Dry yeast I have used, not fully understand though. I don't understand why I need to put it in cooled boil water before pitching. I assume pitchable yeast is the yeast that is in liquid form and you jut pitch in right away.

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IMO - pitchable yeast is a misnomer used by the yeast labs to get you to buy more of it. Despite what kind of yeast you use, you should use a starter for your wort, especially if you're making a big beer. If you simply pitch the yeast, it's fairly likely that you'll have a lag time before the fermentation begins or risk stressing the yeast. This is one of the biggest causes of stress to new brewers as well because they won't see anything happening up to 72hrs. By making a starter for your pitchable yeasts, you will significantly reduce the amount of lag time as you will have propagated the amount of yeast cells exponentially. I've never had a problem with just pitching a vial for a session brew, but I still should have used a starter to ensure proper fermentation.

Julohan said:

What is the difference between a yeast propagator, activator, dry, and pitchable tube? Dry yeast I have used, not fully understand though. I don't understand why I need to put it in cooled boil water before pitching. I assume pitchable yeast is the yeast that is in liquid form and you jut pitch in right away.

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The reason for rehydrating dry yeast is to proof it, you really aren't making a starter, just making sure the yeast is viable.

I say yes you would likely benefit.

Muntons' and dry yeast can work fine, but I don't use them anymore. I use Wyeast exclusively.

Try a few batches with whatever liquid yeast your LHBS carries be it Wyeast or White Labs. You can't go wrong with this stuff.

so what is the best route to go wyeast propagator, wyeats activator, or white labs pitchable tube?

Julohan said:

so what is the best route to go wyeast propagator, wyeats activator, or white labs pitchable tube?

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The propagator has only about 1/4 of the yeast cells that the activator and White Labs tubes have, and it's not much cheaper so it's not worth it in my opinion. Wyeast Activator packs and White Labs vials are about equal in cell count, just different brands.

To see how many packs of yeast you'll need for a batch, check out mrmalty.com and click on "yeast pitching calculator". You can calculate it with a starter (always recommended) or by using extra packages.

Like noeldundas suggested, see what your LHBS carries... my good one around here carries almost exclusively dry, and their prices for the liquid they do get is outrageous.

I have a related question, Yooper... if you're adding (for example) two packets for a brew, can't you just do a starter of wort, and let it work for a few hours (esp while you are cooling your wort)? I thought it was a matter of number of cells, rather than the number of vials / packages of yeast.

Yeast works in two stages. I don't know the details about all the chemistry and biology, but from what I understand, yeast uses oxygen in the first stage to multiply and increase cell count. That's why aeration is important. Once it runs out of oxygen, it starts chewing on sugars and that's the second stage. When you do a starter, the idea is that you want to give the yeast oxygen so that it enters the first stage that is multiplication. You want to time your starter so that your yeast is about to enter the second stage when you pitch it. Then you aerate your wort and the yeast continues to multiply again. So a starter is the poor man's way of pitching more yeast. So pitching two vials or packs of yeast achieves the same goal of pitching a higher cell count.

Rehydrating dry yeast is to do just that, rehydrate it. If you were proofing it, that would involve adding some sort of sugar and you don't want to rehydrate with anything but regular (not distilled) water. The dry yeast cannot control what is transferred across it's cell membrane until it gets hydrated and if you add it dry to wort it can kill a lot of the cells before they can get going. Now, I have sprinkled my dry yeast right into my primary and made good beer, but if you're going to rehydrate first then you want to just use plain water that you would brew with. Rehydrating first will give your yeast a good head start, but probably isn't critical.

And put me down for using dry yeasts for beers that I don't want a "special yeast" for like Belgian beers or ones that I want to use Pacman for. S04 and S05 are my two dry yeast of choice depending on if I want American or English style.

Vuarra said:

I have a related question, Yooper... if you're adding (for example) two packets for a brew, can't you just do a starter of wort, and let it work for a few hours (esp while you are cooling your wort)? I thought it was a matter of number of cells, rather than the number of vials / packages of yeast.

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Well, I am a big believer in either pitching at high krausen, or waiting until the starter is fermented out completely before pitching, so it usually requires a day or two in advance.

mithion said:

Yeast works in two stages. I don't know the details about all the chemistry and biology, but from what I understand, yeast uses oxygen in the first stage to multiply and increase cell count. That's why aeration is important. Once it runs out of oxygen, it starts chewing on sugars and that's the second stage. When you do a starter, the idea is that you want to give the yeast oxygen so that it enters the first stage that is multiplication. You want to time your starter so that your yeast is about to enter the second stage when you pitch it. Then you aerate your wort and the yeast continues to multiply again. So a starter is the poor man's way of pitching more yeast. So pitching two vials or packs of yeast achieves the same goal of pitching a higher cell count.

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Sometimes, you need a pretty big starter. Say you're doing a 1.090 OG beer with a package of yeast that is 3 months old. You'll need 305 billion cells to meet this need. Some of the options might be- make a 5L starter with 2 yeast packages, pitch 9.2 packages of yeast (no starter), or use 4 packages of yeast and a 2L starter. Those options should all give you the same cell count, but a couple of of different ways to get there.

The yeast packages are labelled "pitchable" but there are always the buts. Even White Labs says on their website: White Labs recommends on their label to make a starter "if the gravity is over 1.070, if the yeast is past its "best before" date, or if a faster start is desired" and: What is "Pitchable"?

White Labs Pitchable yeast is designed to ferment a 5 gallon (20 liter) batch of homebrew beer. We package each vial with 70 to 140 billion yeast cells, which corresponds approximately to a 1-2 liter size starter. Some of the liquid yeast on the market is packaged in small quantities, and should not be used directly in 5 gallons. Lag times are typically between 5-15 hours.

So, you can see that even if the vial has 100 billion cells (the middle of what WL claims), that you may need 300 billion cells for some ales and even more for lagers.

A starter will ensure that you have viable yeast and that they are ready to get to work, whenever you use liquid yeast of any brand.

My only experience: So far, I'm 3-batches into homebrewing and really enjoying it. My first batch was a Midwest Newcastle clone. My OG was a little low and my final was quite high at 1.020 which I blame on the Munton's dry yeast. The beer tasted good, but was kind of sweet and didn't have much alcohol.

My second batch I upgraded to Whitelabs. I hit my OG and my FG finished at 1.010...and the alcohol is present. : ) So, I'm going to keep the dry yeast laying around for an emergency, but I'm a whitelabs snob now and plan on using them as often as I can. The extra cost is pretty negligible spread out over 5-gallons of beer.

2-0turbo said:

My only experience: So far, I'm 3-batches into homebrewing and really enjoying it. My first batch was a Midwest Newcastle clone. My OG was a little low and my final was quite high at 1.020 which I blame on the Munton's dry yeast. The beer tasted good, but was kind of sweet and didn't have much alcohol.

My second batch I upgraded to Whitelabs. I hit my OG and my FG finished at 1.010...and the alcohol is present. : ) So, I'm going to keep the dry yeast laying around for an emergency, but I'm a whitelabs snob now and plan on using them as often as I can. The extra cost is pretty negligible spread out over 5-gallons of beer.

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The cost is nil if you wash it.

I've already made 4 brews from 1 vial of WL001 Cali Ale Yeast, and still have 1 mason jar left, I will get another 8 jars out of the two 5 gallon batches I have going now.

Schnitzengiggle said:

The cost is nil if you wash it.

I've already made 4 brews from 1 vial of WL001 Cali Ale Yeast, and still have 1 mason jar left, I will get another 8 jars out of the two 5 gallon batches I have going now.

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True. I am a new brewer in a Paris apartment, so I'm just getting going. I'm looking to get a couple of Erlenmeyer flasks over Christmas and maybe a stir plate to do starters. After that, I'll probably get into storing yeast. I have watched the videos on Youtube and it doesn't seem too complicated. Just beer-sanitize, but much more careful. Sterile. I'm finding I like hops, so that is getting to big the bigger expense than yeast. Can we wash hops and reuse those?

2-0turbo said:

My only experience: So far, I'm 3-batches into homebrewing and really enjoying it. My first batch was a Midwest Newcastle clone. My OG was a little low and my final was quite high at 1.020 which I blame on the Munton's dry yeast. The beer tasted good, but was kind of sweet and didn't have much alcohol.

My second batch I upgraded to Whitelabs. I hit my OG and my FG finished at 1.010...and the alcohol is present. : ) So, I'm going to keep the dry yeast laying around for an emergency, but I'm a whitelabs snob now and plan on using them as often as I can. The extra cost is pretty negligible spread out over 5-gallons of beer.

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I made a midwest nutbrown. Hit 1.006 with the muntons.... was my first brew.