Is a secondary even needed anymore?

I was reading a bunch of threads, and I had a few questions.

It seems that a long set in the primary is as good as racking to a secondary, and possibly even better (less chance of contamination, worrying about introducing O2, etc).

However, I'm quickly becoming addicted to this lifestyle and have a sweet stout, 90 IPA clone, and a fruit wheat beer lined up for my next brews.

Now, I've been reading that it's perfectly fine to open up the primary bucket, add hops, and let it go for another 14 days. I also read about adding fruit and the different flavors/aromas at different stages of addition.

However, I have always read to rack on top of fruit in a secondary, or add to flamout, our in with the primary in the beginning. I heard the more pronounced flavors come the longer into the process you add the fruit. I guess my main question would be:

What would be the outcome if I added fruit to the primary, after 2 week or so when fermentation is done?

Would it be like adding it to a secondary and racking on top, or would the cake somehow detract the flavors.

I ask becuase I would hate to buy a secondary carboy for making a fruit beer (considering its only my fiance who would drink it, and would only brew it maybe once a year). If I can do everything with a primary only (dry hopping, clearing a beer with a longer sit time, etc.), I would like to not have a secondary at all to worry about and save the 50 bucks in supplies.

Everywhere I read it says adding fruit in the primary won't give as pronounced flavors as racking on top of in a secondary. However, is this at any stage in adding to the primary, or would there be a difference, say, between adding when you pitch the yeast as opposed to the 2nd week the beer is in the primary?

Thanks for the time! :rockin:

You will definitely get more pronounced fruit flavors, and more importantly aromas, by waiting for primary fermentation to finish up first, even though fermentation usually picks up again when you add the fruit.

Plastic (even food grade plastic) is permiable by oxygen over long periods of time, which could lead to oxidized beer. Probably not a big deal for Pale ales and wheat beers who only spend a few weeks in a seconday, but for an imperial stout, barley wine, or other varrieties that spend 6+ weeks in the secondary, I would imagine that you would run into problems.

Now having said that, that theory only applies to those (like myself) that use a plastic bucket for primary fermentation.

Also, letting a beer sit ontop of a decompasing yeast cake for a long period of time may put you at risk fo yeast autolysis. As I understand it, the purpose of the primary fermentation is to let the beer ACTUALLY ferment. Once you hit the target finishing gravity, rack to the secondary and simply let the brew condition as a whole before bottle conditioning.

Great question . . . Well thought out and well researched . . . :rockin:
You were rewarded with 2 VERY GOOD answers to continue on your Quest for a Great Tasting Beer . . .

I would be able to agree with you IF you do not move your keg.

Once you move your keg you rouse the yeast off the bottom and it becomes cloudy again.

If you secondary then the majority of that yeast is not in the primary anymore...

I use secondary only when....
adding fruit
aging for more than 30days before bottle/keg
dry hopping

I'll second arkador. I only use a secondary when I need to age over 4 weeks. IMO it's an unnecessary step to rack to a secondary fermenter. I think a lot of the things that aredone today are based on 1970's practices. A lot of brewers are afraid of change, afraid of trying something different, and afraid to believe that there is new brewing ideas/technology. If we could get everyone to drop their 1st edition Charlie Papazian book in the trash and pick up a new and up to date brewing book, we'd be leaps and bounds ahead of where we are today.

So we established that fruit should be added after primary fermentation has completed, lest the yeast scrub out the flavor and aroma. So the next question you're asking is whether you can add the fruit to he primary bucket, or must you rack onto the fruit in another vessel. I've never given it much thought myself. I think you would be fine adding it to primary. Just beware of a vigorous fermentation starting due to the sugars in the fruit. I would rig a blow off tube just in case.

Fruit in secondary will cause a secondary fermentation, no doubt! I have never experienced this as vigerous, and have not seen any krauzen form from the fermentables in sugar. The yeast that hitches a ride into secondary will devour all of the sugars happily. Raspberries will turn white in about 5 days, then sink to the bottom, and continue to consume for about 7-10 days total.

Freeze fruit before adding it, the ice crystals will rupture cell walls, and give the yeasties better access to all the goodies in the fruit, as well as ensure best flavor extraction. I am a fan of real fruit, not extract or puree.

forces said:

Plastic (even food grade plastic) is permiable by oxygen over long periods of time, which could lead to oxidized beer. Probably not a big deal for Pale ales and wheat beers who only spend a few weeks in a seconday, but for an imperial stout, barley wine, or other varrieties that spend 6+ weeks in the secondary, I would imagine that you would run into problems.

Now having said that, that theory only applies to those (like myself) that use a plastic bucket for primary fermentation.

Also, letting a beer sit ontop of a decompasing yeast cake for a long period of time may put you at risk fo yeast autolysis. As I understand it, the purpose of the primary fermentation is to let the beer ACTUALLY ferment. Once you hit the target finishing gravity, rack to the secondary and simply let the brew condition as a whole before bottle conditioning.

Click to expand...

Correct, I am not factoring in time, as I have yet to brew a beer that would need 2-3+ months of conditioning. If and when I do, I will most likely get a carboy, but till then, I would only need a carboy to add fruit/etc.

Also, as far as autolysis is concerned, I heard conflicting opinions. One one hand, like you said, I heard leaving beer in the primary too long can cause off flavors. However, others have said that its possible that setting on the yeast actually helps to remove some off flavors produced. They're both opinion, so I won't hold one to be more true than the other, unless I see it firsthand.

twoodward15 said:

I'll second arkador. I only use a secondary when I need to age over 4 weeks. IMO it's an unnecessary step to rack to a secondary fermenter. I think a lot of the things that aredone today are based on 1970's practices. A lot of brewers are afraid of change, afraid of trying something different, and afraid to believe that there is new brewing ideas/technology. If we could get everyone to drop their 1st edition Charlie Papazian book in the trash and pick up a new and up to date brewing book, we'd be leaps and bounds ahead of where we are today.

Click to expand...

:rockin:

Arkador said:

Fruit in secondary will cause a secondary fermentation, no doubt! I have never experienced this as vigerous, and have not seen any krauzen form from the fermentables in sugar. The yeast that hitches a ride into secondary will devour all of the sugars happily. Raspberries will turn white in about 5 days, then sink to the bottom, and continue to consume for about 7-10 days total.

Freeze fruit before adding it, the ice crystals will rupture cell walls, and give the yeasties better access to all the goodies in the fruit, as well as ensure best flavor extraction. I am a fan of real fruit, not extract or puree.

Click to expand...

As am I. I never liked extracts, hell I can't even stand fruit concentrate drinks.

But my primary question is what masonsjax brought up.

I understand adding fruit will cause a secondary fermentation, up the ABV a bit, etc. However, lets say we add fruit on day 10 after pitching. What would be the difference between adding fruit and letting a secondary fermentation occur after you racked to s secondary, or doing it on day 10 in a primary? Both are finished primary fermentation, they'll both set the same amount of time after before bottling. Is there any reason to rack and use a secondary in this case (I.E.- Will the yeast cake or trub or just having more particulate in the primary somehow impact the flavors/aroma negatively)? Or will the flavors and aroma be equivalent... since either way, I'd way till the main fermentation is done and let it sit the same amount of time?

1990dtgl98 said:

I understand adding fruit will cause a secondary fermentation, up the ABV a bit, etc. However, lets say we add fruit on day 10 after pitching. What would be the difference between adding fruit and letting a secondary fermentation occur after you racked to s secondary, or doing it on day 10 in a primary? Both are finished primary fermentation, they'll both set the same amount of time after before bottling. Is there any reason to rack and use a secondary in this case (I.E.- Will the yeast cake or trub or just having more particulate in the primary somehow impact the flavors/aroma negatively)? Or will the flavors and aroma be equivalent... since either way, I'd way till the main fermentation is done and let it sit the same amount of time?

Click to expand...

I have always done it in secondary, but as long as you are bottling within 1 month of the time you pitched your yeast, there should be no reason that you cannot.

The biggest advantage to me for racking to secondary for fruit, is that when racking off of fruit, you will want to push your racking cane into the fruit as they will be resting on the bottom, and it may be hard to tell where the fruit ends, and the trub begins. I like to leave as much of that behind as possible.

Kegging a raspberry bear means that you will get seeds in the next batch of beer too, no matter how well you clean the keg and lines, inless you are very meticulous.

1990dtgl98 said:

I understand adding fruit will cause a secondary fermentation, up the ABV a bit, etc. However, lets say we add fruit on day 10 after pitching. What would be the difference between adding fruit and letting a secondary fermentation occur after you racked to s secondary, or doing it on day 10 in a primary? Both are finished primary fermentation, they'll both set the same amount of time after before bottling. Is there any reason to rack and use a secondary in this case (I.E.- Will the yeast cake or trub or just having more particulate in the primary somehow impact the flavors/aroma negatively)? Or will the flavors and aroma be equivalent... since either way, I'd way till the main fermentation is done and let it sit the same amount of time?

Click to expand...

I've never done a fruited beer, but keep in mind that there is significantly less yeast in the secondary vessel than there is in the primary. So if you add the fruit in the secondary, there will be a much slower, more gentle fermentation of the sugars. In the primary, you run the risk of waking up the yeast in the cake, which will result in a more vigorous fermentation of those sugars, which is exactly what you do not want.

I'd recommend getting a second carboy, but make it a big one. That way, when you aren't using it for a secondary, you can have two beers going at once. And when you are, you can get a fresh one into the primary. The only reason that smaller carboys are generally used as secondary vessels is because there is no real fermentation going on to push a large volume of O2 out of solution. But when you add the fruit, there will be a bit more going on, which should solve that problem.

Personally, I only use a second container for fruit beers (which I very rarely brew -- just personal preference), bulk aging of big beers which need time to mature, or sour beers.

If you decide to use a second fermenter for fruit, I recommend a bucket instead of a carboy. A big wad of fruit pulp can be difficult to get out of a carboy.

As for the autolysis and oxygen permeability issue, I've had beer that sat on the yeast for NINE MONTHS (don't blame me, it was in my neighbor's basement). It was overaged, but not oxidized, and I didn't get autolysis-type rotting dreck flavors from it. I'm not saying autolysis doesn't happen. I'm saying it didn't happen in this case.

Hegh said:

I've never done a fruited beer, but keep in mind that there is significantly less yeast in the secondary vessel than there is in the primary. So if you add the fruit in the secondary, there will be a much slower, more gentle fermentation of the sugars. In the primary, you run the risk of waking up the yeast in the cake, which will result in a more vigorous fermentation of those sugars, which is exactly what you do not want.

I'd recommend getting a second carboy, but make it a big one. That way, when you aren't using it for a secondary, you can have two beers going at once. And when you are, you can get a fresh one into the primary. The only reason that smaller carboys are generally used as secondary vessels is because there is no real fermentation going on to push a large volume of O2 out of solution. But when you add the fruit, there will be a bit more going on, which should solve that problem.

Click to expand...

Actually that's a good idea. Since the headspace issue wont be as much a concern if I'm adding sugars to further ferment.

My only concern would be if I did brew a big beer that needed 6 months of aging, then I'd once again be worried about headspace.

jds said:

Personally, I only use a second container for fruit beers (which I very rarely brew -- just personal preference), bulk aging of big beers which need time to mature, or sour beers.

If you decide to use a second fermenter for fruit, I recommend a bucket instead of a carboy. A big wad of fruit pulp can be difficult to get out of a carboy.

As for the autolysis and oxygen permeability issue, I've had beer that sat on the yeast for NINE MONTHS (don't blame me, it was in my neighbor's basement). It was overaged, but not oxidized, and I didn't get autolysis-type rotting dreck flavors from it. I'm not saying autolysis doesn't happen. I'm saying it didn't happen in this case.

Click to expand...

Another side of the 'sitting of yeast' stories. Thanks for the opinion!