reallllly on the fence !!!!

Ok so here's my dillema..... I'm ready to step my brewing game up and I'm not sure where to go with this option #1 10 gallon deluxe all grain brew set up which inludes :

1- 10 gallon cooler MLT with false bottom and valve setup
1- 10 gallon cooler HLT with sparge arm and all tubing w/ valve setup
1- 10 gallon mega pot with thermo and valve setup

or stay doing extract and partial mash and go with

1- 5 gallon deluxe keg system ( I bottle now)

1- 5 gallon keg ( corny )
1- 10 lb co2 tank
1- dual regulator all hoses etc w/ picnic faucet

now heres the deal I want BOTH but can only afford one or the other.
What do you all think is in the long run is best to spend the money on i'm ready for all grain but so damn tired of bottles. Thanks in advance for the advice.

All-grain gives you more control of the final product. Kegging offers convenience.

I say get the kegging system and buy a 10 gallon kettle to do all grain brew in a bag. My last 6 batches or so have been BIAB all grain and I've been really satisfied. A 10 gallon kettle will limit you to about a 13lb grain bill, so if you want bigger beers down the road, you may want a larger kettle or pick up the mash cooler later. As far as the kegging, I couldn't be happier with kegging, bottling was a PITA and I've convinced myself that the beers have been better since kegging them too.

I guess I'd suggest you go with whatever you're more interested in. Is it more important to you to start kegging, or to start brewing AG?

If you want, you can look at it in terms of money. Getting the AG stuff will help to save money on ingredients for future brews, while getting the keg equipment has the potential of causing you to spend more money (refill the co2 for one).

On the other hand, you could look at it in terms of time. Buying AG stuff will lengthen your brew day while getting keg equipment will shorten your bottling day.

I think I'd personally go AG before getting into kegging, but I'm not really bothered by bottling and I'm very interested in brewing AG. Just my 2 cent.

I would get the keg system, then find the topic in the DIY section of this forum and build your own mash tun from an igloo cooler. It's simple, inexpensive, and works VERY well. Sure you'll have to split boil on your stove top between a couple smaller pots or invest in a larger pot and you'll be cooling your wort in the sink with ice until you buy the cooler, but hey; it works! Moving to AG brewing without investing into a bunch of high end equipment was not as hard as it seemed like it would be in my opinion... And I haven't killed anyone with my beer yet or watched someone spit it across a table, that's always a definite plus.

Have your cake and eat it too! Then pick up the pro setup down the road..

PS>> I'm damn sick of bottling myself (just look at my signature, blech.. over it).

onipar said:

I guess I'd suggest you go with whatever you're more interested in. Is it more important to you to start kegging, or to start brewing AG?

If you want, you can look at it in terms of money. Getting the AG stuff will help to save money on ingredients for future brews, while getting the keg equipment has the potential of causing you to spend more money (refill the co2 for one).

On the other hand, you could look at it in terms of time. Buying AG stuff will lengthen your brew day while getting keg equipment will shorten your bottling day.

I think I'd personally go AG before getting into kegging, but I'm not really bothered by bottling and I'm very interested in brewing AG. Just my 2 cent.

Click to expand...

I'm kinda with you on this I feel AG is more of an investment in my brewing carrier wheras kegging is a convienence. Don't get me wrong bottling is a pain and the waiting associated opposed to force carbonating but it will not help me grow as a brewer in any way. I am still going to give it a few days so not to be impulsive with my purchase though.

p.s. I've read some of your work on your website it's really good and I'm looking foward to your upcoming release.

All grain. My 5 gallon batches are VERY rarely over $15 for a 15# grain bill. Bottling doesn't bother me at all but I also don't have the space for a keggin set up!

Go AG. The only reservation I have with your choices is that the kettle isn't sufficient for 10g batches (if that is in your plans). So, if possible, try to upsize that kettle to 15g and you won't have buyer's remorse later.

Also if you go all grain for 10 gallon batches, you are going to want a 15 gallon pot at the very least!

All grain. My beer improved immensely when I made the switch, but YMMV. Kegging is convenience. I just look at bottling as a way to get jacked forearms and wrists from scrubbing out 50 some bottles each time.

+1 on go all grain. You will be able to afford the kegging equipment with all the money you will save doing AG batches.

+1 on Passed pawn's comment. Get a 15G kettle at a minimum (20G being perfect).

All grain, and with the money you save on ingredients, kegging system in the near future.

Aschecte said:

I'm kinda with you on this I feel AG is more of an investment in my brewing carrier wheras kegging is a convienence. Don't get me wrong bottling is a pain and the waiting associated opposed to force carbonating but it will not help me grow as a brewer in any way. I am still going to give it a few days so not to be impulsive with my purchase though.

p.s. I've read some of your work on your website it's really good and I'm looking foward to your upcoming release.

Click to expand...

Yeah, definitely give it a couple days. i always wait too, after too many impulse buys.

And thanks so much for reading! I'm glad you're liking the stories. I've gotten quite impatient for my novel to come out (it was accepted last year and won't come out till late this year), but luckily I've had a lot of short story releases to distract me. :cross:

Thanks for reading!

I agree with going all grain but doing biab or a cheaper route so you might be able to afford both a turkey fryer off craigslist will probably score you a burner and decent size pot for under $50, then all you need is a $5 piece of fabric to make a bag out of, and you're set. Convenience and quality

Of course, you're eventually going to want your own grain mill and immersion chiller also.

I really think the important thing right now is to make the most quality beer possible, which is a reason to go with all-grain, but also includes controlling fermentation temps, proper aeration, and yeast health (starters). You may already have this locked down, but this is where I'm at right now...I've been making good beer, but really need to get my fermentation conditions perfected.

I would go with the kegging option.
I nearly quit brewing because of bottling. For me it takes about 6 hours of brewing to make a 5 gallon batch. It takes about 4 hours of messing around to bottle. (at least for me)
After realizing how easy it was to get a batch kegged, and that you never worry about having a bad bottle I was really happy with my direction. I also used to hear 'but you can't just take a keg to a party'. But yes, I do it all the time, CO2 tank, keg, bags of ice, and trashcan. Also, growlers are a great way to transport your keg beer.
Anyway, once I realized the ease of kegging it really made it worth it to upgrade brewing gear to all grain.
Just my two cents.

I went with kegging first. My logic was that if I took the only part of brewing that I hated (bottling) out of the equation I would brew more and skills would improve. I then moved to all grain and love it. With that said, if you piece together both setups with used parts or sale items you may be able to do both. You can get into all grain for less than $100.

Do both. Your kids really don't nee to go to college, its vastly overrated.

passedpawn said:

Go AG. The only reservation I have with your choices is that the kettle isn't sufficient for 10g batches (if that is in your plans). So, if possible, try to upsize that kettle to 15g and you won't have buyer's remorse later.

Click to expand...

It's hard to say I've been doing 5 gal batches for a long time an I'm pretty comfortable with that but who know's maybe in the future 10 gallon batches may be what I'm in to you are def right though for the $100 extra it's worth bumping up the brew kettle

Germelli1 said:

Also if you go all grain for 10 gallon batches, you are going to want a 15 gallon pot at the very least!

Click to expand...

yes, waiting for someone to mention that, hard to boil 13+ gallons in a 10 gallon pot

Kaz said:

I say get the kegging system and buy a 10 gallon kettle to do all grain brew in a bag. My last 6 batches or so have been BIAB all grain and I've been really satisfied. A 10 gallon kettle will limit you to about a 13lb grain bill, so if you want bigger beers down the road, you may want a larger kettle or pick up the mash cooler later. As far as the kegging, I couldn't be happier with kegging, bottling was a PITA and I've convinced myself that the beers have been better since kegging them too.

Click to expand...

well I kind of know what a BIAB system is but could you please give me a basic rundown of use if it's not to much of a bother. I just don't get how you would sparge the grain without a HLT and a way to catch the runoff in a 3rd vessel.

Aschecte said:

well I kind of know what a BIAB system is but could you please give me a basic rundown of use if it's not to much of a bother. I just don't get how you would sparge the grain without a HLT and a way to catch the runoff in a 3rd vessel.

Click to expand...

I've never done it (biab), but I think they don't sparge.

I don't know maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way but if you don't sparge your going to leave all those sugars on the grains and won't that effect your effeicency? like I said I have have 0% AG exp. so this all all speculation from reading books trying to get a good foundation.

Aschecte said:

I don't know maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way but if you don't sparge your going to leave all those sugars on the grains and won't that effect your effeicency? like I said I have have 0% AG exp. so this all all speculation from reading books trying to get a good foundation.

Click to expand...

Yes, if you don't sparge efficiency will take a big hit.

You dont need to go overboard with equipment. Im no expert at brewing but I am an expert at saving money. The kegging system is a must. I bought this before I even started brewing. Just the thought of bottling is enough to drive me nuts. I keg and if I want to bring some with me some place then I fill my Tap a Draft system and bring it along. I had the same thoughts and went the cheap route and it has worked out great for me.

I had a 48qt. cooler laying around and made that into a mash/lauter tun. No need for fancy sparge arms ... your just starting out. Get a feel for what your doing then you can upgrade. I made a manifold for the cooler and you can batch or fly sparge. Cost me $30 for the manifold (I had 1/2in. pipe laying around) but you can make it out of pvc cheaper. For the pot I bought an Aluminum 32qt. pot from Walmart for $28. It is listed as a crab steamer online only. Is it the best??? nope. Does it work?? like a charm. I have made 6 brews with it and it is great. I bought 50ft. of 3/8 copper tubing and made my own chiller that also works great. Now being that it is 90 here and my tap water was 80 the last time I brewed I need a prechiller. No problem...get an old discarded heater core or ac condenser to put into a saltwater slush and there is a pre chiller for a few bucks. Mine was pretty much free as I have most things laying around. Water coming out of it was at 48 degrees. I cant wait to try it out the next time I brew. Its up to you but there is a DIY section here and I would go check it out. You really need the kegging system but I bet you could do both .

Ok so here's the update..... I did some thinking as well as some net searching and #1 found a keg system for $120 cheaper than my normal online hbs . I'll give the place I got it from props it was Midwest supplies ended up dropping $159 for a 5gal ball lock corny keg 5Lb co2 tank all lines and 2 way regulator. I made a 50/50 compromise on the MLT and HLT I bought the MLT 10gal igloo w/ false bottom and conv ball valve assy.for $109 my compromise was to build my HLT ( probably could've done the MLT also but didn't want to chance messing it up) 10 gallon igloo from Home Depot $52 all parts for bulkhead $26 so the HLT was $78 I basically just saved the shipping. So all together I got both for $346 plus freight was $388. I hate to admit it but my other HBS would've charged almost $300 just for the MLT/HLT and $350 for the keg system. Who ever said Homebrewing saves you money lied!!!!

KEG KEG KEG!!!

Do you realize how much effort it would be to bottle 10 gallons???

Do what I did and Brew in a Bag. I made a BIAB and 5 hop socks for under $10

I just did my first BIAB and the efficiency was PHENOMENAL!!!

Ya, no need to even argue it. People doing BIAB are getting anywhere from 75-90% mash efficiency with no worry of stuck sparges, no waiting for lautering, no need for a HLT or mash tun. I really can't see the point in spending the money on the extra gear other than the need to be 'traditional'.

Kaz said:

Ya, no need to even argue it. People doing BIAB are getting anywhere from 75-90% mash efficiency with no worry of stuck sparges, no waiting for lautering, no need for a HLT or mash tun. I really can't see the point in spending the money on the extra gear other than the need to be 'traditional'.

Click to expand...

My first BIAB I got over 90% efficiency. After pulling the bag and letting it drain into the kettle I took a baking rack and squeezed every last drop out of the grains.

I was shocked at how well it worked for my first All-Grain.

Not to mention how much time you save. You save about an hour compared to traditional All-Grain.

dallasdb said:

Not to mention how much time you save. You save about an hour compared to traditional All-Grain.

Click to expand...

I started doing BIAB and I think it is great - but how do you figure you save time? Process is the same, except BIAB is in a sparge bag and traditional uses a mash tun. In both cases I did a version of batch sparging (sparge bag in collader and poured sparge water over grains and into the pot to meet preboil volume for BIAB). Both took the same amount of time.

The only real savings is equipment cost (you can get away with only 1 large pot). Luckily, my buddy stepped up to the plate and bought a blingman MT since I already had the BK.


Aschecte
Good choices on the purchase!

You won't regret them.

It is almost frustrating how much the LHBS rip you off. I would buy it all local, if they didn't stick it to me as bad as they often do. Not everything is unfairly priced, but most everything.

I've heard of guys sparging and lautering for over 3 hours using a traditional mash tun. With BIAB, I pull up the bag, let it drain for about 5 mins, press the crap out of it on a grill for about 5 minutes and all this while my burner is going full tilt to get me to boiling. So, based on what I've heard (never used a mash tun myself) I think can be a huge time saver, especially with grains that are prone to getting a mash stuck.

I've done two BIAB as a new convert. I'm a fan. Simple. Efficient. Did a 15 lb grain bill in my 36 qt pot and ended up with 73% efficiency and a half gallon of 1.040 wort for a starter to boot. I use the top half of that basting pan that comes with a lot of ovens and just lay it over the top of my kettle, put the bag on to drain, pour some sparge water on top, while heating. I use the $7 coarse large grain bag sold by many online retailers. Cleans up well.

Kaz said:

I've heard of guys sparging and lautering for over 3 hours using a traditional mash tun. With BIAB, I pull up the bag, let it drain for about 5 mins, press the crap out of it on a grill for about 5 minutes and all this while my burner is going full tilt to get me to boiling. So, based on what I've heard (never used a mash tun myself) I think can be a huge time saver, especially with grains that are prone to getting a mash stuck.

Click to expand...

Ok so I can understand that misconception (that same technique is what scared me from AG in the beginning). Using batch sparge techniique I routinely bang out 2 10G batches in about 5-6 hours.

I would venture to say the vast majority of folks batch sparge (I could be wrong).

After mashing, open your ball valve all the way and let wort drain off.
Batch sparge Add in water, not to exceed 168F, to make up your preboil volume (if you get 5 gallons wort and your preboil is 13g, you add 8 gallons to the tun). Stir the grains for 1 minute and let it sit for 2 minutes. Open ball valve up full throttle and drain into Boil kettle.

My batch sparge takes 3-5 minutes.

I know the way you are talking about as traditional. Many folks may do that, but I think that is more old school. Batch sparging is quick, gets you high efficiencies (76-78% is my usual).

As for stuck sparges,... not in a blichmann tun as far as my experience goes. I have done a lot of wheat and rye brews this year (I only do 10g batches). No stuck sparges to date.

The only major savings in BIAB IMO is the cost of a mash tun. For that reason though, I think that is why it is so clutch to getting extract brewers into the AG game. The low equipment cost makes it accessible.

The tough part comes when you try to up your grain bill. Imagine a BIAB with an IPA grain bill for a 10G batch. Get the pulley system out to lift that bad boy up!

I've done both. A Keg setup is expensive and takes more effort if you build your own unit (go with a Keezer) but the benefit of having a keg system goes way beyond not having to bottle, which in itself is a huge plus. I find my beer is much tastier on tap plus you have more control over the carbonation. You can dry hop right in the keg for unbeatable fresh hop flavor. You can use the Keezer to cold crash, cold condition, lager, etc. You can make great beer and have it ready to drink in 3 weeks or less if you force carb.

As far as quality of brew, I saw a big improvement going from liquid extract with specialty grains to partial mash with DME to make up gravity, but cant say I see as big (or maybe really any) a difference in partial mash to AG.

Do both, but the sooner you start kegging the sooner you will wonder why you waited as long as you did IMO.

+1 on BIAB being a different beast at 10 gal vs 5 gal. At 5 gallons it's easy as pie. While I haven't done 10 gallons and don't plan to for a while, a 30 pound grain bag sounds tough to handle.

JimTheHick said:

+1 on BIAB being a different beast at 10 gal vs 5 gal. At 5 gallons it's easy as pie. While I haven't done 10 gallons and don't plan to for a while, a 30 pound grain bag sounds tough to handle.

Click to expand...

I've only done BIAB with 5 gal batches but if I were to do a 10 gal batch, I would use two bags.

That way you aren't manhandling a giant bag but call pull out one then the other. My wife sewed my BIAB and 6 hop bags for under $10.

Voile material, heavy duty thread, and some material to reinforce the seams that looks like a wide shoe lace and it holds the grain REALLY well.

Get the keg system and a bigger kettle. There are cheaper ways to go all grain such as BIAB or the Zapap system.

Hey just to update I got all the above the keg system the mlt and hlt and a 10 gallon brew kettle.... ended up buying the keg system outright the mlt and hlt I did a DIY and built them using a 10 gallon round igloo's and the brew kettle I bought a straight 10 gallon brew pot and then drilled it and added a sightglass and thermo and a tubescreen and spigot setup. saved a bunch of money with the diy aspect of things and was able to afford everything at once.

dallasdb said:

I've only done BIAB with 5 gal batches but if I were to do a 10 gal batch, I would use two bags.

That way you aren't manhandling a giant bag but call pull out one then the other. My wife sewed my BIAB and 6 hop bags for under $10.

Voile material, heavy duty thread, and some material to reinforce the seams that looks like a wide shoe lace and it holds the grain REALLY well.

Click to expand...

Not saying 2 5 gallon bags can't be done. However in my experience, with a 15G pot for a 5 gallon batch BIAB, it was pretty tough to keep the bag submerged fully for the mash because the grains don't get to spread out as much. I would think at a minimum you would have to work with thinner mashes. Unless you come up with a good method, lifting even the 5lb grain bills isn't any fun after a while. You do one little thing wrong and you have have wort all over the place when you squeeze, etc.

IMO, l think using a mash tun is way easier than the BIAB method. For me the BIAB was a patch to fix the problem that I didn't have a MT. That said it allowed me to do a couple AG batches and realize it was way easier than people lead me to believe. Once my buddy bought out MT I never considered going back to BIAB.