Ale vs. Lager

Ok, so I understand that some yeasts (lager) are typically used for colder temperature (i.e. lagering lol). But my question is, what if you were to boil up a batch of oktoberfest/marzen beer but instead of using a lager yeast and lager, just let it ferment with a normal ale yeast? Is this a big no no? And if so, for what reasons?

You can do it, no problem... just be advised that ale yeast will give a different flavor.
Choose an ale yeast that would give a flavor to your liking.

Well. The yeasts also taste different. But, if you use a super clean ale and ferment it fairly cool (like wlp-001 at 62-64*F) it should make a passable Octoberfest.

Heck, you might even like the Octoberfest better with some ale esters...who knows?

You can do this but I would suggest using W-34/70 dry lager yeast or wlp830 as cool as you can ferment it.

Even at ale temps, it is still more "lager like" than ale yeast.

So can any of you give me an actual description of typical differences in taste between lager and ale yeasts? Or is this just something thats been done so long its ingrained in tradition? And I have found some Octoberfest-like styles that use S-04, anybody care to comment on what taste this yeast brings to the table versus the ones you've recommended?

bweatherly said:

So can any of you give me an actual description of typical differences in taste between lager and ale yeasts? Or is this just something thats been done so long its ingrained in tradition? And I have found some Octoberfest-like styles that use S-04, anybody care to comment on what taste this yeast brings to the table versus the ones you've recommended?

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There's some good info about this here. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/what-does-clean-taste-mean-163893/

Gotcha... so lagers are "clean", or don't impart flavors from their yeast. If I use and Ale yeast on the other hand it would definitely impart flavor and so that yeast would have to be chosen wisely to match what I want to taste in my beer. Other than that no problems though eh? So I could actually use an Ale yeast to my advantage in manipulating the taste of my beer to be unique?

bweatherly said:

Gotcha... so lagers are "clean", or don't impart flavors from their yeast. If I use and Ale yeast on the other hand it would definitely impart flavor and so that yeast would have to be chosen wisely to match what I want to taste in my beer. Other than that no problems though eh? So I could actually use an Ale yeast to my advantage in manipulating the taste of my beer to be unique?

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Bingo!
To get a good feel for the differences, buy a couple cheap 5gal buckets and split a batch of beer. Use different yeasts in each. You will be suprised at the difference there will be.

bweatherly said:

So I could actually use an Ale yeast to my advantage in manipulating the taste of my beer to be unique?

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Thats the great thing about ales. English yeasts put off more fruity esters, Belgian yeasts have very unique ester/phenol profile, Weizen yeasts are unique too. There are a lot of decisions about yeast selection that can really change a beer.

Lager yeasts put off very low levels of esters or phenols, so they really let the ingredients and process shine.

what about using the steam yeast?

dcp27 said:

what about using the steam yeast?

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Thats a great example how lager yeast fermented at ale temperatures gives a completely different profile.

California lager yeast ferments at ale temperatures.

Last question ha ha...
So, I understand the purpose of lager yeast and ale yeast (no imparted flavor vs imparted flavor). But if that is what holds true for lager yeast and properly used temps (low 50's), then what about if you use a lager yeast at normal room temp? What exactly does this do? Give off esters/phenols? And if so, why are these not used just as much as ale yeast since its the same principle?

bweatherly said:

Gotcha... so lagers are "clean", or don't impart flavors from their yeast. If I use and Ale yeast on the other hand it would definitely impart flavor and so that yeast would have to be chosen wisely to match what I want to taste in my beer. Other than that no problems though eh? So I could actually use an Ale yeast to my advantage in manipulating the taste of my beer to be unique?

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Have a look at some of the German ale yeasts like WY1007 and styles (kolsch, alt etc). They use top fermenting ale yeasts but can tolerate a variety of temperatures and are lagered (lagering refers to cold storage/conditioning post ferment).

Ale yeasts tend to give fruity esters which is due to temperature. Lower temperatures will produce less (leading to that clean profile) so lagers will result in less fruitiness (they do often produce sulphur odours while fermenting but this dissipates). Brewing with an ale yeast at the lower end of the range can also give a clean profile, which, if coupled with lagering/cold conditioing can give a similar cleanliness.

A neutral ale yeast like Safale US05 fermented at the lower end of its range can give a pseudo lager effect. Potentially you could experiment with the effect of a lager yeast outside it optimum range too to see if you can get some ale characteristics from it. I believe some kit yeasts are even a blend of lager and ale in order to give them a wider temperature tolerance.

bweatherly said:

Last question ha ha...
So, I understand the purpose of lager yeast and ale yeast (no imparted flavor vs imparted flavor). But if that is what holds true for lager yeast and properly used temps (low 50's), then what about if you use a lager yeast at normal room temp? What exactly does this do? Give off esters/phenols? And if so, why are these not used just as much as ale yeast since its the same principle?

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New belgium 1554 is an example of a beer using lager yeast fermented at ale temps.
I brewed 2 clones of it awhile back.
The 1st one, I fermented at 62F with w-34/70 dry lager yeast. It came out too clean w/ no desireable fruity esters. It was almost as clean as beers I had fermented with this yeast at 50F.
The 2nd one I let rise to 70 F and it did put off some esters, but was still cleaner tasting than beers I had fermented with ale yeasts at similar or lower temps.

That's why, in my earlier post I reccomended it to you. IMO, if you're going to ferment a lager, regardless of temps, use lager yeast.

bweatherly said:

Last question ha ha...
So, I understand the purpose of lager yeast and ale yeast (no imparted flavor vs imparted flavor). But if that is what holds true for lager yeast and properly used temps (low 50's), then what about if you use a lager yeast at normal room temp? What exactly does this do? Give off esters/phenols? And if so, why are these not used just as much as ale yeast since its the same principle?

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Anchor Steam is what happens when you ferment lager yeast at ale temperatures. Kolsch is what happens when you ferment ale yeasts cooler.

Prosted !!