Looking to Refine and Economize

I've been brewing for almost a year now, doing a batch every month or two. I'm generally happy with extract brewing but I'd like to find a way to minimize costs.

I've primarily been using LME from my LHBS ($2.50/lb) but am interested in finding other alternatives. I saw another post on here about buying in bulk, which got the price down to around $2/lb. For some reason, that still seems exorbitant to me though. I've heard those 55-gallon drums of LME only cost around $200 but neither do I know where to get one, nor could I use that much in a timely manner. I do have nitrogen though, so if I could get my hands on one, that would help extend the life of it.

Also, I'm curious how critical the brand and type of yeast is. I know some people absolutely swear by White Labs and liquid yeasts in general, but I used a Californian dry yeast that kicked ass and really rocketed through fermentation. I'm not sure if that's a good thing, but it was impressive, since we did another batch at the same time with a White Labs liquid yeast and fermentation took two to three times as long. They were different beers but had roughly the same amount of fermentable sugars.

Anyway, I guess I'm just curious to see if anyone else has encountered the same issues and what their experience has been. Any advice or suggestions on how to economize while maintaining quality would be very much appreciated!

One way you can easily reduce your costs is to read the pinned topic about yeast washing and save some of your yeast for reusing. If you wash the yeast from one good batch of beer you should have enough yeast left over for 5-6 possibly even more batches of beer.

Put some in the fridge or save it for later and that will save you 6-7 bucks a batch if you like liquid yeast or 1-2 bucks if you like dry.

Well if you're not one to get too addicted to buying new toys, you can buy some relatively basic equipment and go all-grain. You can generally make low- or medium-gravity 5-gallon AG batches for $10-15.

AG is an investment up front, but you do save over the long run. grain prices are going up, which mean extract prices are going to go up too.

Thanks Mutilated1 for directing me to that yeast washing post. That is very helpful and I'll definitely try it with the batch that's currently fermenting.

As for going all grain, I've heard it can be more work than it's worth. I don't mind putting in some work but I don't want to make it an all-day thing. I like that I can do extract brewing in a couple of hours and be done with it. Then again, it definitely does have its limitations.

Maybe I do need to look into all grain and at least give it a shot.

explosivebeer said:

I've primarily been using LME from my LHBS ($2.50/lb) but am interested in finding other alternatives. I saw another post on here about buying in bulk, which got the price down to around $2/lb

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Honestly, either your prices are off or you're getting screwed. I pay $1.50 for my grains and I do NOT buy in bulk. Begin buying in bulk and you can get that down to about a dollar a pound. Take that a step further and organize a pallet shipment and you can bring that down to closer to $0.50 a pound (assuming we're talking USD or slightly higher for CND).

The yeast washing article is another great money-saver, and I find it to be quite an enjoyable activity.

Kevin Dean said:

Honestly, either your prices are off or you're getting screwed. I pay $1.50 for my grains and I do NOT buy in bulk. Begin buying in bulk and you can get that down to about a dollar a pound. Take that a step further and organize a pallet shipment and you can bring that down to closer to $0.50 a pound (assuming we're talking USD or slightly higher for CND).

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He's talking about extract, not grain. If anything, I think $2-2.50 a pound for extract is a very good price - It was always $3.30 a pound for DME at my LHBS back when I did extract brews, and god only knows what it is (or will be) once the grain price increases affect it.

explosivebeer said:

Thanks Mutilated1 for directing me to that yeast washing post. That is very helpful and I'll definitely try it with the batch that's currently fermenting.

As for going all grain, I've heard it can be more work than it's worth. I don't mind putting in some work but I don't want to make it an all-day thing. I like that I can do extract brewing in a couple of hours and be done with it. Then again, it definitely does have its limitations.

Maybe I do need to look into all grain and at least give it a shot.

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Your welcome.

Actually All-Grain is kind of a lot of work, but its enjoyable enough that "work" is probably not the right word to use. Its more like fun-time. Its not really that much work because most of the time is spent waiting, you wait for water to get hot, you wait for mash to rest, you wait for it all to drain out of the MLT, you wait for it to boil, you wait for it to get cool, etc... I end up using the waiting time to drink, bottle other batches of beer, clean up, etc... Its not that much more trouble to brew a batch of beer all grain style than it is to say do the dishes and clean the kitchen or something.

Not counting hops which I purchased separately in bulk, since I've started doing all grain my costs have gone down to like $18-20 per batch, with a surprising increase in the quality of the beer that I'm making.

If you do All Grain, then at some point you can get a Barley Crusher and start getting your grain in Bulk to. If you've got a local place where you can pick it up and avoid the delivery charge, your costs should drop down to $9-$11 per batch - thats pretty damn hard to top if you can get 5 gallons of fantastic beer exactly like you want it for what an ordinary premium six pack costs.

I'm not quite to the buying grain in bulk point in the hobby yet myself, and probably won't be for a while because I want to start kegging batches and have beer on tap first.

Wow. Getting down to the $10 range for a batch would be incredible. I'd even be happy with $20.

I'm a little hesitant to make the jump to all grain since my time is somewhat limited and I don't think I'd be able to do it as much. But it would be nice to try it out and see whether or not it would work for me.

Regardless, thanks for everyone's input.

If you want to stick with extract, you can by DME in bulk. It will keep for a long time.

Otherwise, definitely check into all grain. I was talking with my friendly LHBS owner yesterday evening, and extract prices are going up quite a bit. He's already bumped prices on a couple of his specialty grains.


TL

explosivebeer said:

Wow. Getting down to the $10 range for a batch would be incredible. I'd even be happy with $20.

I'm a little hesitant to make the jump to all grain since my time is somewhat limited and I don't think I'd be able to do it as much. But it would be nice to try it out and see whether or not it would work for me.

Regardless, thanks for everyone's input.

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You know, one other thing you could do to lower the price of your batches would be to brew simpler beers. Brew lighter ales or lagers that don't have large gain bills and aren't well-hopped. It's not necessarily something I would do because I like a variety. But your costs are coming from three points ... yeast, grain (lme) and hops if you reduce each of those then you'll see a savings.

• If you wash your yeast or buy dry (which is what I do), then you'll bring your costs down there from $5-$7 per batch to $1-$1.50 per batch.

• Buy your hops in bulk (which doesn't require that much storage space) and brew less hopped beers and you can keep your hops cost to about $2.00 per batch or less.

• Session beers/lighter beers can bring your costs down even further. Also, you'll have less costs in adjunct grains.

Really, though, until you make the jump to all-grain, you're cost per batch will probably hover, if only slightly, above the $20 mark.

I make a cream corn ale that's outstanding and costs $13.00 for 5 gal. to make ... that's $0.25 per 12 oz beer. Considering a 30 pack of Old Style is $0.36 per beer, that's pretty economical for a good beer.

Yeah most of our batches have been about $40 since we like to do heavier, high-alcohol varieties.

I definitely don't want to sacrifice the quality of the beer for the sake of a few dollars, since that would defeat the purpose for me. But if I can find a way to do both, I would be very happy.

I've been looking more into all grain and while it is a bit more work, I think it might be manageable with my schedule.

Also, I'm wondering if my LHBS was steering me away from switching to all grain since half my expenditures were in LME!

explosivebeer said:

Yeah most of our batches have been about $40 since we like to do heavier, high-alcohol varieties.

I definitely don't want to sacrifice the quality of the beer for the sake of a few dollars, since that would defeat the purpose for me. But if I can find a way to do both, I would be very happy.

I've been looking more into all grain and while it is a bit more work, I think it might be manageable with my schedule.

Also, I'm wondering if my LHBS was steering me away from switching to all grain since half my expenditures were in LME!

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It depends on whether or not they think you'll buy the all grain equpment from them or not because even though you'll spend half the money in fermentables, you'll spend 10 batches worth in equipment if you go that route. Of course there are more economical DIY solutions for the mashtun etc.

explosivebeer said:

Also, I'm wondering if my LHBS was steering me away from switching to all grain since half my expenditures were in LME!

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Ding! Profit margin seems to be good on extracts, not good on grains.

I never learned extract. I started AG and stayed there. I love it, and because I don't know how "little" work is required for extract, the "work" isn't an issue to me.

My last batch was a fairly simple Honey Wheat Ale using leftovers around the house. It was probably $14.00 for the batch - I reused danstar Nottingham that I washed from my batch of Cheese's VCC Ale, and I used some leftover hops from the freezer... That batch was 5 hours, start to finish including cleaning and milling grain, with a 75 minute mash and a 75 minute boil.

explosivebeer said:

Yeah most of our batches have been about $40 since we like to do heavier, high-alcohol varieties.

I definitely don't want to sacrifice the quality of the beer for the sake of a few dollars, since that would defeat the purpose for me. But if I can find a way to do both, I would be very happy.

I've been looking more into all grain and while it is a bit more work, I think it might be manageable with my schedule.

Also, I'm wondering if my LHBS was steering me away from switching to all grain since half my expenditures were in LME!

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Like I said, there are some very good beers out there like some simple lagers that can be made for under $10 with all-grain and by buying in bulk. Several lager have a simple grain bill of 10lbs two-row, 2 oz hops and a package of Safelager 23 would cost you about $8-$9.50.

I personally like a simplier beer for my house beers (one I always keep on tap) and then do a good IPA or APA, and then a seasonal.

As far as work goes, I really don't think it's that much more work. Like someone else mentioned, it's mostly just waiting around. And, I kind of slit my brew day between a few days.

• Grind grains and gather everything one night (1 hr)

• Mash overnight one night

• brew day same as with extract except you sparge and collect runnings

explosivebeer said:

Also, I'm wondering if my LHBS was steering me away from switching to all grain since half my expenditures were in LME!

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Frankly, I WOULDN'T trust a brewer (or LHBSer) that steered a brewer away from all grain. Everyone should, at least, give it a shot before deciding to stick with extract. At the very least, a brewer ought to hang out with someone brewing all grain before deciding to stick with extract.


TL

edited: see bold

good point Tex. I agree 100%. For me extract was convenient. After just doing my first AG brew last weekend. I couldn't help but think to myself..why didn't I do this earlier?

Yes a bit more cost to get the equipment you need, a bit more time on your brew sessions. But I'll tell you what, putting down a $20 spot and getting all the grain and hops I needed for a 5 gallon batch sure felt good!

just one mans humble .02 cents-

cheers,

Newguy, that is very encouraging to hear. The people I've talked to (other homebrewers and guys at my LHBS) have always leaned heavily toward extract brewing. But apparently I just needed another perspective to help demystify the process. I definitely like the idea of doing it all start to finish.

Anyway, I think I'm going to find a larger brew pot, rig up a mash tun cooler, and do an all grain batch this weekend to see how it is for myself.

Thanks for everyone's input!

The trickiest part about AG brewing is designing a recipe. With extract, they all start with 6-7# light LME, or something like that before you get to play with the specialty grains, hops, and yeast. With AG, you have all sorts of fun choices in grain to play with.


TL

explosivebeer said:

Newguy, that is very encouraging to hear. The people I've talked to (other homebrewers and guys at my LHBS) have always leaned heavily toward extract brewing. But apparently I just needed another perspective to help demystify the process. I definitely like the idea of doing it all start to finish.

Anyway, I think I'm going to find a larger brew pot, rig up a mash tun cooler, and do an all grain batch this weekend to see how it is for myself.

Thanks for everyone's input!

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That's the spirit, dude! Go kick some hind-end!

TexLaw said:

The trickiest part about AG brewing is designing a recipe. With extract, they all start with 6-7# light LME, or something like that before you get to play with the specialty grains, hops, and yeast. With AG, you have all sorts of fun choices in grain to play with.


TL

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Thanks for the encouragement Chriso. And TexLaw, if you (or anyone else out there) has a relatively easy AG recipe for me to start with (or any other helpful hints), I'm all ears. Being that this is my first time, I have no idea how to "design" a beer, although I'm definitely looking forward to being able to do that down the road.

I generally like dark, malty beers, but if it's easier to start with something light, I'm fine with that as well. Really, I'd just like to get some good flavors going on.

Orfy's Hobgoblin clone is dark, malty, pretty simple and inexpensive. Link here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=21097

Only drawback is you'll have to convert to pounds really quick. Won't take but a minute.

Basic shopping list is 10 pounds 2-row (Cheaper than MO for your first shot. worry about using Maris Otter later.), 1/2 lb Crystal 60L, 1/2 lb Cara-Pils (Dextrine), and 1/3 lb Chocolate malt.

My LHBS doesn't do partial amounts, so it'd be 1 lb each of Crystal, Dextrine, and Chocolate. Even still, at my LHBS's prices, that's $8 for the 2-row and $2 each for the specialtys, so $14 in grain with 1/2 lb each of Crystal, Dextrine, and almost 3/4 lb Chocolate left over for more batches.

Then, hop with some Willamette, Fuggle, Golding, or really any general low-AA hop. For your hop schedule, simplify WAY past what Orfy posted - do about an ounce for bittering at 60 minutes, and then i'd do an ounce and a half at about 10 minutes. Again - in the future, you can play with what crazy hop schedules do, but you wanna keep this simple and cheap. So there's about 4.00-5.00 in hops, so we're at about $18

Then, Nottingham yeast should be less than $2.00, so there's a grand total of 20.00 for 5 gallons of delicious Hobgoblin-esque clone! If it's not quite as good as the real thing, then you know what to do - start tinkering! Just not the first time, though. KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.

Best of luck, and again, congrats on being willing to try something new, even if those around you don't think it's worth trying.

I like the sound of that recipe, myself.


TL

TexLaw said:

I like the sound of that recipe, myself.

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A co-worker and I are doing it this Sat. for a Big Brew with the local club. We wanted something easy and tasty, and he wants something that will leave a yeast cake that he can pitch a big ol' brown ale onto for next week. Hence, a simplified Hobgoblin fits both our bills!

We're probably not going to follow the same intensive hop schedule, but we're also probably not going to crank down to only two additions - I figure we'll probably do 60" bittering, and perhaps a 30, 10, and FO addition. I think we're using half US Goldings, and half Fuggle. Maybe just US Goldings.

Wow, thank you very much Chriso. That is very helpful!

Good luck with your batch this weekend!

explosivebeer said:

Wow, thank you very much Chriso. That is very helpful!

Good luck with your batch this weekend!

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No prob, I really like taking complex recipes, over-simplifying them, and adding back a couple complex steps at a time.

It lets you see what you're starting with, the individual parts of it, and once you're to the complex version of the recipe, you get to see WHY you end up with what you end up with.

Should be fun, too bad we just got 4" of snow this morning! Now everything's gonna be soggy outside!

Huh! I just realized, the original recipe IS 60-30-10-FO, it just has 2 additions at each point instead of 1. My bad! I hadn't read carefully enough! Orfy lists 'em backwards (e.g. "30 minutes into boil" instead of "30 minutes remaining in boil") and I didn't notice at first!

Paying $35-$40 for a 5-gallon batch of extract was my original motivation to spend a little money on some basics to go all-grain. A turkey fryer, some scrap copper for a manifold in my cooler in the garage and some flexible copper rubbing for a chiller…and bam. I’m instantly down to $20 per 5-gallon batch…retail.

Money helped me make the switch (doing a 10 gallon batch of SNPA for $15-$20 means I’m definitely gaining ground on the economics), but it things like these that keep me in it:L










And as for this:

explosivebeer said:

…I definitely don't want to sacrifice the quality of the beer for the sake of a few dollars…

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Invest a few dollars on some equipment and dedicate the extra few hours to all grain and your beer will benefit profoundly.

BierMuncher said:

Invest a few dollars on some equipment and dedicate the extra few hours to all grain and your beer will benefit profoundly.

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I concur - after I tasted the results of my first all-grain batch I quite seriously had some trouble finishing the last extract batch that I had on tap at the time - which wasn't even a bad batch. I literally became a snob toward my own (extract) beer, instantly. I just found my all-grain beer SO much better - I would never go back, unless I had absolutely no choice.

Funkenjaeger said:

I concur - after I tasted the results of my first all-grain batch I quite seriously had some trouble finishing the last extract batch that I had on tap at the time - which wasn't even a bad batch. I literally became a snob toward my own (extract) beer, instantly. I just found my all-grain beer SO much better - I would never go back, unless I had absolutely no choice.

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That's really great to hear. I'm getting more and more excited to do the all grain method.

Thanks in large part to everyone's input on here, I just went out and got an 8-gallon pot to go with my 5-gallon, as well as a cooler to serve as my mash tun. I'm picking up a few carboys on Saturday (I've been using plastic buckets) and I'll be doing a batch of Hobgoblin shortly thereafter!

Cheers to everyone on this site!

Another easy recipe is EdWorts Haus Ale. It popped my AG cherry last week every so gently.