Brew with Just LME?

I've used a few cheap beer kits (coopers, Brew Canada and more recently Blackrock). I was putting together a brew last night and decided to do something different. I discovered I could get fresh LME from a local shop around the corner so I subbed for sugar. And shortly after adding Pale LME, it occurred to me that the kit was pretty much LME with hops. so......

Can I just buy LME and hops and forget the kit? And do I need hops in the boil/fermenter or can I just dry hop? I was thinking of a simple experiment with some LME and cascade for drop hopping and wanted to know if that was too simple.

FYI, I've not yet used hops (on the schedule), or done much outside of a canned kit. Finding materials and supplies is a bit of a challenge where I am since most shops focus on wine and don't cater to the HOME brew part.

Any info would be great. Thanks.

I get the LME, steeping grains, hops, and yeast from the brew store, but not as a kit. You will need to boil your hops if using unhopped LME.

Yes, you can use just LME and not sugar- that's what most people do. A good quality kit, though, has some fresh grains also.

You absolutely need to boil hops, though. Hops create bitterness in the beer through boiling (isomerization of hops oils). That takes a long time, so wort is typically boiled for 60 minutes to get the bittering out of the hops. Dryhopping or otherwise adding the hops will not do it.

I'd suggest a good quality kit and not that "stuff" you've already tried. Depending on where you are located, you can maybe order everything online. I like a kit like this: http://www.austinhomebrew.com/produ...=1113&osCsid=c7de761a989d318e66550f763283a719 where the ingredients are listed- Extract: 6 lb Liquid Malt Extract, 1 lb Dry Malt Extract, 1 lb Base Grains, .88 lb Specialty Grains

or a super super simple extract recipe, like this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f126/extract-english-brown-ale-27601/

3.3 LBS Amber LME
2 LBS Amber DME
8 oz Crystal 60L (crushed)

1 oz Williamette (60 minutes)
1/2 oz Williamette (5 minutes)

Pour two gallons water into brewpot and bring to approx 155 degrees. Steep grains (in a grain bag) 20 minutes, dunking grains like a tea bag. Remove grains and allow to drain without squeezing when finished. Discard the grains.

Heat the brewpot to boiling. Remove from heat and add malt extract. Stir until dissolved. Bring back to a boil and add bittering hops. Boil 55 minutes, then add finishing hops. Boil 5 minutes. Remove from heat and cool rapidly to 70 degrees by using a wort chiller or an ice bath. When cool, put contents into a large fermenter. Fill with cool water until the 5 gallon mark is reached. Using a hydrometer, take an og reading. Sprinkle the yeast in, stir, and secure the lid and airlock. Keep at 68 degrees, if possible.

Bottle after at least two weeks, and a f.g. of 1.012 or less, or rack to a secondary. Bottle with 5 ounces priming sugar.

Yooper said:

Yes, you can use just LME and not sugar- that's what most people do. A good quality kit, though, has some fresh grains also.

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I'm not talking about substituting LME for sugar. I did that last night. I'm talking about substituting LME and hops for a canned KIT.

Basically the ONLY ingredients in the brew would be LME and Hops (boiled for 60 minutes, and then maybe dry hopping. Or is that too simple? I want to know if I can stop buying kits.

I can't find anyone in my area that sells grain so it's not really an option right now. Any having it shipped from the US isn't going to happen since the cost of getting a kit would exceed the cost of buying 40 cans of beer. Anything crossing the border is hit with ridiculous brokerage charges. Last time they charged me 30 bucks to determine that the tariff is $3.20, so I was charged and extra 33.20, on a $20 item from ebay.

Husher said:

I'm not talking about substituting LME for sugar. I did that last night. I'm talking about substituting LME and hops for a canned KIT.

Basically the ONLY ingredients in the brew would be LME and Hops (boiled for 60 minutes, and then maybe dry hopping. Or is that too simple? I want to know if I can stop buying kits.

I can't find anyone in my area that sells grain so it's not really an option right now. Any having it shipped from the US isn't going to happen since the cost of getting a kit would exceed the cost of buying 40 cans of beer. Anything crossing the border is hit with ridiculous brokerage charges. Last time they charged me 30 bucks to determine that the tariff is $3.20, so I was charged and extra 33.20, on a $20 item from ebay.

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I would be shocked if there wasn't a mail order homebrew store in Canada where you could order steeping grains from. There has to be.

A five second Google search for "Home brew stores Toronto Canada" found this:

http://www.torontobrewing.ca/servlet/StoreFront

http://homebrew-supplies.ca/viartshop/

There are some styles that don't require steeping grains. Some that I like are Bavarian Hefeweizen, Vienna, and English Bitter. I brew these with LME: Wheat, German Gold, and amber. Steeping grains can still be used in these, but aren't necessary IMO.

Yooper said:

Yes, you can use just LME and not sugar- that's what most people do. A good quality kit, though, has some fresh grains also.

You absolutely need to boil hops, though. Hops create bitterness in the beer through boiling (isomerization of hops oils). That takes a long time, so wort is typically boiled for 60 minutes to get the bittering out of the hops. Dryhopping or otherwise adding the hops will not do it.

I'd suggest a good quality kit and not that "stuff" you've already tried. Depending on where you are located, you can maybe order everything online. I like a kit like this: http://www.austinhomebrew.com/produ...=1113&osCsid=c7de761a989d318e66550f763283a719 where the ingredients are listed- Extract: 6 lb Liquid Malt Extract, 1 lb Dry Malt Extract, 1 lb Base Grains, .88 lb Specialty Grains

or a super super simple extract recipe, like this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f126/extract-english-brown-ale-27601/

3.3 LBS Amber LME
2 LBS Amber DME
8 oz Crystal 60L (crushed)

1 oz Williamette (60 minutes)
1/2 oz Williamette (5 minutes)

Pour two gallons water into brewpot and bring to approx 155 degrees. Steep grains (in a grain bag) 20 minutes, dunking grains like a tea bag. Remove grains and allow to drain without squeezing when finished. Discard the grains.

Heat the brewpot to boiling. Remove from heat and add malt extract. Stir until dissolved. Bring back to a boil and add bittering hops. Boil 55 minutes, then add finishing hops. Boil 5 minutes. Remove from heat and cool rapidly to 70 degrees by using a wort chiller or an ice bath. When cool, put contents into a large fermenter. Fill with cool water until the 5 gallon mark is reached. Using a hydrometer, take an og reading. Sprinkle the yeast in, stir, and secure the lid and airlock. Keep at 68 degrees, if possible.

Bottle after at least two weeks, and a f.g. of 1.012 or less, or rack to a secondary. Bottle with 5 ounces priming sugar.

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Hey Yooper, what type of yeast do you recommend for that Brown, I'm guessing Nottingham but was wondering if you had any other suggestions.

Thanks!

63belair said:

Hey Yooper, what type of yeast do you recommend for that Brown?

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Dry Nottingham is great, as long as you keep it under 70 degrees. Otherwise, S04 is really good as well at 64-72 degrees.

Husher said:

I'm not talking about substituting LME for sugar. I did that last night. I'm talking about substituting LME and hops for a canned KIT.

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I know. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Use only LME, and NO sugar or sugar substitutes. Boil with hops.

It's that easy.

The beer is better if you use some grain, though. The recipe I posted would work without the grains if you absolutely couldn't get them. It is just better with them. If you read the directions, it tells you when to add the hops and when to cool the beer.

It's about the simplest thing in the world except for those poor quality "kit & Kilo" canned prehopped beer kits. The no-boil prehopped kits are not to my liking at all.

I'm in the same exact boat. I'm trying to graduate from kits and I've been wondering about just brewing with extract and hops. However, from what I've been reading, extract only beers tend to be a bit one dimensional depending on what grains the extract is made with. This is why everyone steeps additional grains with their extract.

The other thing is you're limited on what you can make. For example, I don't think it's possible to make a stout with just some dark extract and hops, is there? I hope I'm wrong here because that is something I'd really like to do. A simple all extract stout.

I'll still try it out to see what kind of quality it produces. It has to at least be better than the premium Mr. Beer kits as long as you use more extract per gallon.

Mike37 said:

I'm in the same exact boat. I'm trying to graduate from kits and I've been wondering about just brewing with extract and hops. However, from what I've been reading, extract only beers tend to be a bit one dimensional depending on what grains the extract is made with. This is why everyone steeps additional grains with their extract.

The other thing is you're limited on what you can make. For example, I don't think it's possible to make a stout with just some dark extract and hops, is there? I hope I'm wrong here because that is something I'd really like to do. A simple all extract stout.

I'll still try it out to see what kind of quality it produces. It has to at least be better than the premium Mr. Beer kits as long as you use more extract per gallon.

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You're right! You can make a decent simple beer, like a hefeweizen, with extract only along with hops. But to make a stout, you need roasted barley. Steeping grains takes like 20 minutes, though, and it makes such a wonderful difference that it's worth it!

Yooper said:

You're right! You can make a decent simple beer, like a hefeweizen, with extract only along with hops. But to make a stout, you need roasted barley. Steeping grains takes like 20 minutes, though, and it makes such a wonderful difference that it's worth it!

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Well said yooper. I cannot believe what a difference fresh grains make for so little effort and time. Even a hefe benefits from some fresh wheat and barley steeped ahead of time. IMO the draw of homebrew is largely the freshness factor combined with the ability to create whatever you like to drink. Steeping grains go a long ways towards that for extract brewers.

For me, it's a matter of getting efficient enough with all the other steps before adding more. I remember when it took me 2 hours to do a basic Mr. Beer kit the first couple times! Now I can bang one out in less than an hour.

I guess boiling extract and hops sounds like a comfortable happy medium between all extract kits and and extract with grains. Would it be worth doing a couple that way first or should I jump into steeping with something simple?

Mike37 said:

For me, it's a matter of getting efficient enough with all the other steps before adding more. I remember when it took me 2 hours to do a basic Mr. Beer kit the first couple times! Now I can bang one out in less than an hour.

I guess boiling extract and hops sounds like a comfortable happy medium between all extract kits and and extract with grains. Would it be worth doing a couple that way first or should I jump into steeping with something simple?

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Steep!

Sorry for the hijack. On the flip side of the "extract only" coin, is there such a thing as "steep only" with no mash? With steeping grains being only $1.50 a pound and extract being $4+ a pound, I can't help but wonder.

Mike37 said:

Sorry for the hijack. On the flip side of the "extract only" coin, is there such a thing as "steep only" with no mash? With steeping grains being only $1.50 a pound and extract being $4+ a pound, I can't help but wonder.

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Steeping grains doesn't get you any fermentable sugars.

Mike37 said:

Sorry for the hijack. On the flip side of the "extract only" coin, is there such a thing as "steep only" with no mash? With steeping grains being only $1.50 a pound and extract being $4+ a pound, I can't help but wonder.

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No, you'd need to include base malt and mash the grains to get a fermentable wort.

As far as an 'extract only' brew, you can do it, but like everyone's saying it'll be a lot better if you steep even a 1/4 lb of grain with it. Dark and amber extracts have some specialty grains like caramel and chocolate malts, so you can make many different styles. But the thing is the good, fresh flavor that a little bit of grain can add to a beer.

OldBunny said:

Steeping grains doesn't get you any fermentable sugars.

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Wrong. Just doesn't give you ENOUGH fermentable sugars.

Steeping grains are usually ~1-2 lbs and all grain is ~7-13 lbs for a 5 gal batch. Huge difference.

Plus some recipes say to steep for 20 min and some may steep a full 60 min.

You get fermentables from steeping, just not enough to only steep.

Mike37 said:

Sorry for the hijack. On the flip side of the "extract only" coin, is there such a thing as "steep only" with no mash? With steeping grains being only $1.50 a pound and extract being $4+ a pound, I can't help but wonder.

Click to expand...

Yes, you can steep many grains and don't have to mash. But....if you can mash, you can save quite a bit of $$$$!

Think of it this way. (I always use spaghetti sauce analogies- it's my favorite food, so bear with me!).

Say you want to make spaghetti sauce but don't really cook all that much. You have several options. Option #1 is to open a can of Hunt's Spaghetti Sauce. It's pretty cheap, and it's edible. It's not really very good, but it's edible. Option #2 would be to buy a better "jarred" sauce like Ragu. It's better, but not that much like homemade. Option #3 would be to buy canned tomato sauce, onions, garlic and other spices and make a sauce in 30 minutes. Option #4 would be to buy a bushel of tomatoes and get busy.

Now, to compare this to beer:

Option #1 (canned Hunt's) = Cooper's/John Bull no boil kits
Option #2 (jarred sauce)= extract with hops (boiled)
Option #3 (canned tomatoes, but 'homemade')= extract with grains and quality yeast and/or partial mash
Option #4 (fresh tomatoes)= all-grain with a mash

Truly, that's a good analogy in many ways if I do say so myself. Even option #3 is easy, but it takes about 1.5 hours or even a bit more. Option 4 isn't hard, but definitely more labor intensive and more equipment is needed.

To do the difference between all extract and extract with steeping grains is seriously no work at all. It involves literally making tea. The boil is the same, the cooling is the same, and the amount of work is the same. If I had the choice to use all extract or extract with grains, I'd go with the recipe with the grains every time.

The difference between a "kit & kilo" no boil prehopped kit and an extract kit that is boiled with hops is night and day. There is a HUGE jump in quality of the final beer when stopping the prehopped no-boil kits. It's an amazing difference. The resulting beer from an extract kit with hops can be a beer that can be similar to craft beers in quality, while a no-boil kit may be sort of drinkable when very cold. That's worth it, to me.

dallasdb said:

Just doesn't give you ENOUGH fermentable sugars.

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Ah, but how do we define "enough".

nilo did an experiment (here) where he steeped a pound of various crystal malts to make a gallon of wort, and ended up with gravities in the 1.015-1.020 range, with attenuation in the 40-50% range.

So yes, you can absolutely make a beer with steeping grains only. You could steep 10 lbs of crystal 20 and get 5 gallons of 1.040 ish wort. I don't think you'd end up with a very good beer, but you could do it.

dallasdb said:

Wrong. Just doesn't give you ENOUGH fermentable sugars.

Steeping grains are usually ~1-2 lbs and all grain is ~7-13 lbs for a 5 gal batch. Huge difference.

Plus some recipes say to steep for 20 min and some may steep a full 60 min.

You get fermentables from steeping, just not enough to only steep.

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The only way to get fermentables from "steeping grains" is if you add enzymes with base grains. At rhat pkint you are infact mashing though at only 20 min maybe not very completely. With crystal malts and roasted barley only you will not get any fermentable sugars.

Not to call you out but there is enough to keep track of without sifting through misinformation no matter how well intentioned it may be.

BrewKnurd said:

Ah, but how do we define "enough".

nilo did an experiment (here) where he steeped a pound of various crystal malts to make a gallon of wort, and ended up with gravities in the 1.015-1.020 range, with attenuation in the 40-50% range.

So yes, you can absolutely make a beer with steeping grains only. You could steep 10 lbs of crystal 20 and get 5 gallons of 1.040 ish wort. I don't think you'd end up with a very good beer, but you could do it.

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haha. If this is true I guess I am the a$$

mcwilcr said:

haha. If this is true I guess I am the a$$

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Well, to be fair- you get those gravity points from crystal malt whether mashed or not. The way crystal malt is processed means the grain is sort of "premashed" so to speak. So, yes, you do get fermentable sugars from crystal malt. Not a lot, but some. But you won't make a whole beer from crystal malt.

Another analogy- crystal malt is like oregano. Oregano is practically required in pizza sauce, and it goes great with tomatoes. Using quite a bit of it in spaghetti sauce (again the spaghetti sauce) is awesome. It complements the tomatoes wonderfully.

But you don't want to make pizza sauce out of 100% oregano. Because it wouldn't taste good and it would be beyond weird. The same is true with crystal malt. 5-10% in many beers is wonderful and makes the beer complete. It complements the base malt beautifully and gives color, flavor, and depth to the beer. But using it at 100% would give you a terrible product, like 100% oregano pizza sauce.

Got it. Makes so much more sense to me now! Thanks!

Yooper said:

But you don't want to make pizza sauce out of 100% oregano.

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D@mn, that's where I've been going wrong all these years!

No, really, that's a really good way of putting it. It's all about balance.

Yooper said:

Well, to be fair- you get those gravity points from crystal malt whether mashed or not. The way crystal malt is processed means the grain is sort of "premashed" so to speak. So, yes, you do get fermentable sugars from crystal malt. Not a lot, but some. But you won't make a whole beer from crystal malt.

Another analogy- crystal malt is like oregano. Oregano is practically required in pizza sauce, and it goes great with tomatoes. Using quite a bit of it in spaghetti sauce (again the spaghetti sauce) is awesome. It complements the tomatoes wonderfully.

But you don't want to make pizza sauce out of 100% oregano. Because it wouldn't taste good and it would be beyond weird. The same is true with crystal malt. 5-10% in many beers is wonderful and makes the beer complete. It complements the base malt beautifully and gives color, flavor, and depth to the beer. But using it at 100% would give you a terrible product, like 100% oregano pizza sauce.

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I was just always under the impression that crystal malt was unable to convert all on it's own but according to the referenced thread even dark crystal 120L is capable of converting all on it's own.

won't change the way I go about things but it is some good and interesting minutia.

So when I add a half pound of honey malt to my hopville recipe and it calculates a fraction higher ABV, Hopville is in error?

Last beer I made was 11lb light LME, some Centennial, and Nottingham. It was an experiment beer, and tastes quite alright. It's too high-gravity for such a plain beer, but if I had shot for 1.040 or something it would be a fine summer beer.

mcwilcr said:

I was just always under the impression that crystal malt was unable to convert all on it's own but according to the referenced thread even dark crystal 120L is capable of converting all on it's own.

won't change the way I go about things but it is some good and interesting minutia.

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Yeah, I'm not sure why there is the notion that crystal needs to be converted. It doesn't convert on its own, or in a mash. Lighter crystal malts CAN give up a couple of more points in a mash due to a few inconverted starches (since it was kilned for a shorter time) but it's pretty insignificant.

The manufacturing process makes the sugars "crystalized" and available in a steep or mash. It's stewed during malting, and then kilned so it's sort of premashed in that sense. Maybe because it can be successfully steeped, people assume it doesn't give fermentable sugars. But that of course is not correct.

mcwilcr said:

I was just always under the impression that crystal malt was unable to convert all on it's own but according to the referenced thread even dark crystal 120L is capable of converting all on it's own.

won't change the way I go about things but it is some good and interesting minutia.

Click to expand...

I don't recall seeing anything in the thread about crystal being able to self convert.. the sugar extracted in the crystal steeping was sugar that already existed in the malt due to the kilning process. nilo did find that adding pale malt actually increased the sugar contributions of the crystal since there was still inconverted starch available for conversion.

Yooper said:

Yeah, I'm not sure why there is the notion that crystal needs to be converted. It doesn't convert on its own, or in a mash. Lighter crystal malts CAN give up a couple of more points in a mash due to a few inconverted starches (since it was kilned for a shorter time) but it's pretty insignificant.

The manufacturing process makes the sugars "crystalized" and available in a steep or mash. It's stewed during malting, and then kilned so it's sort of premashed in that sense. Maybe because it can be successfully steeped, people assume it doesn't give fermentable sugars. But that of course is not correct.

Click to expand...

BrewKnurd said:

I don't recall seeing anything in the thread about crystal being able to self convert.. the sugar extracted in the crystal steeping was sugar that already existed in the malt due to the kilning process. nilo did find that adding pale malt actually increased the sugar contributions of the crystal since there was still inconverted starch available for conversion.

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Glad I poked my head in here today to learn something new.

Cheers and happy 4th to all of you

Just sitting here grilling some chicken, drinking a homebrew (of course), and doing some thinking. I ran a quick recipe through BrewLab:

12 lbs. of various crystal malts (steeped)
Cascade hops
Coopers ale yeast

It spit out an OG of 1.06, an FG of 1.015, and ABV of 5.7%. Any reason this wouldn't be worth giving a shot?

Mike37 said:

Just sitting here grilling some chicken, drinking a homebrew (of course), and doing some thinking. I ran a quick recipe through BrewLab:

12 lbs. of various crystal malts (steeped)
Cascade hops
Coopers ale yeast

It spit out an OG of 1.06, an FG of 1.015, and ABV of 5.7%. Any reason this wouldn't be worth giving a shot?

Click to expand...

Aside from tasting beyond terrible?

Mike37 said:

Just sitting here grilling some chicken, drinking a homebrew (of course), and doing some thinking. I ran a quick recipe through BrewLab:

12 lbs. of various crystal malts (steeped)
Cascade hops
Coopers ale yeast

It spit out an OG of 1.06, an FG of 1.015, and ABV of 5.7%. Any reason this wouldn't be worth giving a shot?

Click to expand...

You can do it, it'll make something.... without using base malt (or extract) and using horrible yeast, you may not like what it makes though.

As other's have said, odds are its not going to be pleasant. And I'm guessing that BrewLab may be overestimating the fermentability of the sugars from the Crystal.

Got it. Just curious. Thanks!

Dang, now I really want some spaghetti...

Mmmm oregano

Sounds like my brew routine. My last brew was a summer ale. (2) 3.3lb cans of Munton's wheat un-hopped LME. 1 1/2 oz. Willamette Hops,and 1 oz. of McCormick's lemon extract added at the 6 day mark,via the airlock hole. It turned out,light,lemoney,and refreshing.Wonderfull Lawnmower Beer. It's on the "On Deck" list ,but going to use orange extract instead of lemon this time. I use all LME for my brews.Start with the base ,ie,Light,extra light,LME etc. Decide what hops sound good, and brew away.Haven't had a bad one yet.That way ,I have alot of different,flavor combinations.Keeps the pipeline fuller.

I know. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Use only LME, and NO sugar or sugar substitutes. Boil with hops.

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I don't think I have ever been a member of a forum where anyone had almost 43,000 posts. I get the feeling this guy knows exactly what he is talking about, and he'll smack you down with his righteous tome of beer wisdom. When he talks you listen. When he walks you follow. When he bows you lick the dirt. This dude could probably make beer out of your pathetic tears in the Sahara Desert in the time it takes them to fall from the corner of your eye to the ground. That's magic boy, and you'll get it in roughly 42,905 more posts.

Beer helped me write that paragraph (above) and I hope the love of beer will help you have ears to listen. -Amen