Taking a rest!

So I have been doing a 30 min rest around 133 deg, then going up to my target sacc rest temp for another 40 min or until full conversion for the last 3 brew sessions. I have to say, my beers have really improved. I did brew 3 different beers using pilsner malt and wheat malt. I have been reading up on Alpha and Beta Amylase. I really think the low rest helps the higher rest do it's job better by breaking the s. Anyone else like to step rest their mash? I don't want to here, "that the grain these days is so well modified that you don't need a low temp rest"! I know that.
I think doing it any way is worth a try!
Cheers, Gabe

This from Brew: " These two enzymes, alpha-amylase and beta-amylase, each have a very specific role in the mash. The alpha-amylase cuts up starch molecules at many different points along its length. This produces dextrins and also some fermentable sugars. The beta-amylase takes these fragments of the original starch molecules and clips off maltose units from one end. It does so in a very precise manner, one maltose molecule at a time. So over time during the mash, as alpha-amylase yields more and more dextrins, the beta-amylase has more substrate on which to work.These two enzymes, though they work in concert, behave differently in response to changes in mash thickness and mash temperature. This is because of the difference in their stability at high temperatures. Alpha-amylase has an optimal range from 149¡ to 158¡ F. The optimal range for beta-amylase is 126¡ to 144¡ F. " Tom Flores

If I had room in my mash tun to do a multi step mash, I would do it more often. It sucks to have a 5 gallon tun.

I did do one a while back with a low gravity lawn mower brew and found it helped improve the fermentability and the brew cleared up nicely without any aids.

I do them all the time, but I usually do them a bit lower to emphasize the protein rest.

And, I agree with your sentiment regarding the "well-modified" comments. Saying that today's malts do not need a protein rest is like saying you don't need another $10,000 in your bank account. You may not "need" it, but that doesn't mean it won't help.


TL

My standard mash schedule for German beers brewed with German malts used to be just like yours:

20 min at 55 C (133F) - protein
Boiling water infusion
45 min at 65-67 C (149 – 153F) - saccrification
Thin decoction
10 min at 76 C (167F) – mash-out

But I’m starting to get away from the rest at 133F. Not because I think the beers are bad, but because I’m wondering if it may actually do more harm than good. This came after I started reading more recent brewing publications and almost all of the cited mashing schedules used a dough-in above the protein rest. As a result of that I shortened this rest and raised its temperature:

10 min at 57 C (137F) – enzyme rest: get enzymes hydrated and get the infusion water to a boil
Boiling water infusion
45 min at 65-67 C (149 – 153F) - saccrification
Thin decoction
10 min at 76 C (167F) – mash-out

I still have to see how this new rest changes my beers. But it may likely be such a small impact that I would need a good side-by side experiment to tell a difference.

But I second the idea of utilizing a lower temp rest to get the most out of the beta amylase. Maybe you should give the Hochkurz mash (its now for German brewing what the single infusion mash is for American micro brewers: the most used mashing schedule). It can be done as infusion, decoction or with direct heat:

30 min at 62 – 63 C (144-146F) – maltose rest, this emphasizes beta amylase
30 min at 70 – 72 C (158 – 162F) – dextrinization rest, uses the amylase to finish the job of starch conversion
10 min at 76 C (167F) – mash-out, denature the beta amylase and supercharge the alpha amylase

If you want to have more fermentable wort, extend the beta amylase rest. If you want to have less fermentable wort shorten it. Some authors suggest that an extended rest at 158 – 162F (30 – 60 min) will get foam and body positive compounds into the wort that will not be converted anymore. I have been doing that for the last few beers, but have yet to see if it has a noticeable impact on foam stability or body.

Kai

I like the idea of using time as a so called beer "feel" changer. I will have to expieriment with short vs long protien rests. Along with a longer or shorter alpha rest. I think of what I would like my end product to be and try and tune my rests to reach that end result. So far I love the way the rests have rounded out my beers.

Gabe, I've been thinking of doing a protein rest as well. How do you get your grain temp up to the sacc rest? I guess I'm wondering if adding too much water to bump up the temp would make your mash too thin. I mash in a cooler so I'm pretty much at the mercy of using hot water to step my mash, wish I had a steam infuser like Yuri.

Kaiser said:

...
Some authors suggest that an extended rest at 158 – 162F (30 – 60 min) will get foam and body positive compounds into the wort that will not be converted anymore. I have been doing that for the last few beers, but have yet to see if it has a noticeable impact on foam stability or body.

Kai

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I read about this rest in "Principles of brewing science" by Dr. Fix and I think I see better foam formation and stability after I started utilize this rest for 15 minutes.

farmbrewernw said:

How do you get your grain temp up to the sacc rest? I guess I'm wondering if adding too much water to bump up the temp would make your mash too thin.

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When I do a protein rest, I usually start with a ratio of close to 1. To step up, I often have to add water so that the ratio gets up to 1.5 for a single saccharification rest. That works fine, as protein rests like thicker mashes, and saccarification rests tend to like thinner ones. Alternatively, I can add less water for a lower, beta rest and decoct up to an alpha rest.


TL

I can dial in my fermentability by altering my single step infusion temp and my head retention is fine - as long as I lager/condition long enough. I'm considering building the steam set-up but have held off as I don't see hard evidence that there is a benefit. What is it that you feel makes doing step mashes worthwhile?

GT

Got Trub? said:

I can dial in my fermentability by altering my single step infusion temp and my head retention is fine - as long as I lager/condition long enough. I'm considering building the steam set-up but have held off as I don't see hard evidence that there is a benefit. What is it that you feel makes doing step mashes worthwhile?

GT

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More time spent brewing The hobby we all like.

On a serious note - better control, higher utilization, easier sparging. Also I guess traditional technology used for certain kind of beer.

I have been thinking about the influence of the mashing schedule on the taste of the beer for a while now. German beers (let’s take the Pilsner style for example) taste different than their replications by home brewers or micro brews/ brew-pubs. At least for the ones I tasted (including mine). Why is that? We certainly use the same ingredients and the same general process. One of the differences is the mashing schedule. And it is not decoction since most German Pils beers are not decocted anyway. Because of that I’ll have to make a series of batches where I want to see how the mashing schedule can affect the taste of the beer while retaining the same FG. The latter will be difficult, but I may come close. There may be a difference between a Hochkurz mashed beer and a single infusion mashed beer. It’s all about shifting the distribution of sugars and proteins in the resulting wort. But until I have made such a side-by-side experiment, this is all speculation and personal opinion. I might be biased, because I don’t like the one size fits all approach when it comes to mashing for the various beer styles.

Protein rest vs. no protein rest is, at least to me, a totally different discussion. Because that is something that is determined by the grist used for brewing.

Kaiser said:

I have been thinking about the influence of the mashing schedule on the taste of the beer for a while now. German beers (let’s take the Pilsner style for example) taste different than their replications by home brewers or micro brews/ brew-pubs. At least for the ones I tasted (including mine).
...

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Sorry for completely out of topick question but, I wonder about sample selection. It's hard to find German beer on tap in this country. Comparing home brew to bottled beer which was pasteurized, filtered and spent few month on shelf is not really good comparison. Also I doubt you had your home brew with you on a trip to Germany. Comparing based only on taste memory in my opinion won't give you good results.

AdIn said:

I wonder about sample selection. It's hard to find German beer on tap in this country. Comparing home brew to bottled beer which was pasteurized, filtered and spent few month on shelf is not really good comparison. Also I doubt you had your home brew with you on a trip to Germany. Comparing based only on taste memory in my opinion won't give you good results.

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AdIn,

You are completely correct. I actually had this thought in my head when I was thinking about what to write with respect to the difference between German beer and home brew/micro brew beer.

Recently, when my Doppelbock finally came to age and developed the dark fruit notes that I was trying to recreate for such a long time, I came to the realization that it is very easy to take a flavor that is created by age and that you find in the beers sold here, as a characteristic for a particular style. Because of that I will be taking home brew with me when I visit Germany next. I’ll also be paying attention to what the fresh taste of the beers is like. Especially the ones you can get here. Maybe I'm actually closer than I think.

To the ones worried about thinning a mash to much when using hot water infusions: don’t be afraid of thin mashes when it comes to these styles of beer. Water/grist ratios between 1.5 and 2 qt/lb are pretty much standard (low end for darker beers and high end for lighter ones). The rule of 1.25 qt/lb comes from brewing American and British style ales with a single infusion mash. For smaller grists, I oftentimes use more strike and infusion water than I use sparge water.

Kai

OK probaly simple question but here goes.
Do you dough in to get to lets say the 133 degrees with the standard 1.25qt/Lb. let it rest for the 30 mins. Then add the minimal amout of water as possible to get to the 153 degrees (say 4 qt of Boiling water) and then rest there for 45 ? then sparge as I normally would?

Never step mashed just the single infusion and I'm doing a Kolsh tomorrow thought maybe I'd give it a try. So is what I stated above correct?

Thanks,


BMW-LDB

For a Koelsch, aim for a mash thicknes of 1.75 .. 2 qt/lb at the saccrification rest and work backwards from that to calculate the dough-in thickness and dough-in strike water.

Kai

Kaiser said:

For a Koelsch, aim for a mash thicknes of 1.75 .. 2 qt/lb at the saccrification rest and work backwards from that to calculate the dough-in thickness and dough-in strike water.

Kai

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So just change my ratio but I'm correct to add as little water as possible to raise my temp to the 153? Probably the 6 qt@ boiling temp?

BMW-LDB

Yes, use boiling water. That's what I do b/c there is no need to constantly measure the temperature and you can't overshoot it. But
when calculating the volume allow for a buffer. You don't want to run out of MLT space or infusion water before you reached the rest
temperature.

Kai

Kaiser said:

Yes, use boiling water. That's what I do b/c there is no need to constantly measure the temperature and you can't overshoot it. But
when calculating the volume allow for a buffer. You don't want to run out of MLT space or infusion water before you reached the rest
temperature.

Kai

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Thanks Kaiser I'm gonna give it a go I think. I'll post back on Monday how it went. I appreciate your help. One more quick question why do you bump up the ratio to 2 qt/lb? Just wonder, I like to know why things are the way they are.


Thanks again

BMW-LDB

Lucky Dog Brewing said:

why do you bump up the ratio to 2 qt/lb?

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Good question.

The more water you use for the mash the less water will be used for sparging. And sparging is where you are most likely to pull excessive amounts of tannins out of the husks. That’s why ligher and “finer” beers are brewed with a thin mash which improves the quality of the wort. This is only practical to some extend since to thin of a mash won’t work for the enzymes and you need some sparge water to get a good lauter efficiency.

Thick mashes are better for darker beers, where the increased tannin extraction contributes to the robust character of the beer (just like decoction is said to). Thicker mashed also tend to be less fermentable, which also works well with a dark German beer.

At the end, the limit for the mash thickness may be your MLT size and you can’t do much about it.

Kai

Well I got a 10 gall MLT so I'll be good and thanks again for the info.


BMW-LDB