Possible lactic infection

I bought a conical about a month ago and am on my second batch of beer.

The first batch of beer a made seemed to have got a lactic infection.

It had an off vinegary cidery smell to it.

I ended up dumping the batch.

Anyways I made another batch thinking it was a lactic infection I went to the extremes of adding a mixture of PBW, Bleach and boiling hot water to the conical.

I filled it up to the top let it sit for 30 minutes then drained out of both ports and rinsed like 10 times.

Now i'm on my second batch. I have been doing dumps often and even added insinglass to my beer after primary fermentation was done. Today I decided to give the beer a wiff and I noticed that same smell but not nearly as bad as the first batch but its faintly there.

I am so pissed off right now.

The only thing I can think of is that its contaminated again. I had 2 or 3 white clumps that looked like when milk goes bad and clumps sitting at the top of the fermenter. Around the sides where the krausen left a ring around the fermenter some parts were like a dark purple looking color.

I have racked to a sanitized glass carboy now. I know if its infected I'm SOL but it made me feel better because I cannot let it sit in their one more day.

I have never had infection problems before getting this conical. Its an ebay one cheapo.

I have always used plastic or Glass in the past.

from what I have described does this sound like it could be infected again.

If it has that sour smell, then my guess is infection. Sorry man.

If your sanitation ritual is the same, and the infection isn't from something you're doing wrong, I would have no idea where its coming from on the conical. There doesn't seem like there would be a ton of places for bacteria to hide on those things, especially if you clean it up really well.

You said you rinsed after sanitizing. That defeats the purpose of sanitizing. Could be uglies in your water or garden hose? Use a no rinse sanitizer next time. Does the weld look funky around the two taps? How do the two gaskets look? Could be places for uglies to hide. I used one of those conicals and had similar problems with my first batch but did not dump. The other batches seem to be OK...

On my first 2 Ag batches, I too had that cider like smell...Though not white clumps.
I later discovered that my garage temps were hitting the mid 80's, so my ferm temps
were at, or above that.

Starsan for a good no rinse. Watch your temp

He actually never mentioned sanitizing at all. He just said he cleaned well with PBW. So if he is in fact not sanitizing then that would be his problem.

Starsan FTW!!!

Poobah58 said:

You said you rinsed after sanitizing. That defeats the purpose of sanitizing. Could be uglies in your water or garden hose? Use a no rinse sanitizer next time. Does the weld look funky around the two taps? How do the two gaskets look? Could be places for uglies to hide. I used one of those conicals and had similar problems with my first batch but did not dump. The other batches seem to be OK...

Click to expand...

+1, use star san, soak a cloth in it and rub every surface down, drain and don't rinse. Thats what I used to do with my conical and never had issues.

He used bleach, so he is sanitizing, depending upon what concentration it is at. Also, I wouldn't use bleach on SS; it will end up pitting the metal and cause more problems. Go with the no-rinse sanitizers.

You do realize that PBW is a peroxygen based cleaner and bleach is a chlorine sanitizer ( cleaner ) . The combo of these two at the same time neutralizes both...

Dr Vorlauf said:

You do realize that PBW is a peroxygen based cleaner and bleach is a chlorine sanitizer ( cleaner ) . The combo of these two at the same time neutralizes both...

Click to expand...

That is why he is the Dr.

brewjunky said:

I bought a conical about a month ago and am on my second batch of beer.

Click to expand...

That is awesome!

I use a conical myself and if there is anything in any interior surface that would infect beer it needs a thorough cleaning with hot PBW and sanitizing with Starsan. If there is anything you can take apart like valves or fittings be sure to do this because any bug that does not get killed will ruin the batch. Here are a few questions......

1. Do the welds look sanitary? No pits, cracks or crevices.
   
2. Do you spray the whole interior with sanitizer before you close it up before filling?
   
3. Do you keep the outlets sanitary by bagging them with foil or plastic and spray them with sanitizer before and after you open and close a port?
   
4. Do you open the top hatch without spraying sanitizer and making sure there are no drafts of air blowing around?
   
5. Do you ferment at the correct temperature for the yeast being used? Room temperature is usually not cold enough.

Let me know anything you think may be the problem.

OK I use Idopher for my sanitizer.

I only rinsed the PBW and the Bleach out.

I never rinsed the Idopher.

I washed the conical really well the Boiling water was enough to kill anything.

The welds look fine to me except he used way to much heat on the legs and left Dark spots on the inside of the conical from being to hot.

Maybe this is why it was sold?

The temperature is bang on I have AC in my house the house is set to 68 and my basment is probably 2 degrees cooler.

Every time I did a dump I removed the airlock and would sanitize the outlets with vodka then Idopher.

when I was done the dump I did the same thing.

I have 1 spray bottle with Vodka and the other with Idopher.

Like I said I have never had any issues before with contamination and I have been brewing for years now

I did another batch today I guess we'll see how it goes.

does anyone know if heat marks would make SS contaminated for brewing?

and to another person that replied I did a quick wash out with the Bleach.

It was not in there long enough to pit the steel to do that it would have to soak in there for days.

If the problem persists, you may want to replace plastic parts like tubing and racking canes because they can get scratched and harbor infectious bacteria and yeast.

Just a note, if it smells like Vinegar with the sharp distinct odor it would be an Acetic acid producing infection. The Lactic acid producers don't give off much of a distinct aroma, and the flavor is much more subdued, not sharp like Acetic acid.

My guess is it may not be in the conical. Also something that strikes me as odd is that Acetic acid producing bacteria take a very long time to get established in a brew. You may get that odor after fermentation stops but they take their time producing the acid.

I read your response and all the other responses and have no problem with your methods after the boil. The only thing you have not commented on is the chilling before transfer to the conical. The only other item would be your imersion cooler and transfer tubing. Imersion coolers should be cleaned well before use and no leaking water from the hoses should drip into the wort. As it is cooling if the chiller was not sanitary above the level of the wort and wort splashed onto the chiller and dripped down it could possibly infect. What I am trying to say here is to be extremely careful until you find the problem. You need to prove that there is no one thing remaining that would cause the problem.

You can do a control test by placing part of the wort from the same batch in another fermenter and then you will find out if the problem is the conical or not.

Also remember that Idopher takes longer to kill bacteria than Starsan so if you are doing things too fast you may not get a good sanitary condition of the surface being treated. For this reason alone I think Starsan is a better product.

Bleach can cause problems if not well rinsed so be very careful about that.

You should get some "Barkeepers Friend" and scrub the dark areas in the conical with a stiff brush and scrub rag and then rinse very well with a brush. If necessary use a stainless brush to loosen the visable material on the stainless. Next follow this with a spray of grain alcohol and repeat if necessary. This would remove any doubt that anything could be lurking on the metal. Any welded fittings on the conical should get the same treatment as this is a very bad place for bacteria to hide. You have to take apart as much as you can to effectively sanitize.

I use an immersion chiller and throw it into the boil of 15 minuets.

I admit I don't soak the Chiller in PBW or Oxy-clean because as far as I was concerned boil the heck out of it before use was good enough.

I also don't have any leaks what so ever on it I check that a lot.

The only thing I can think of is maybe my plastic spoon when I added finnings.

But I sprayed it with vodka and Idophur.

As for my hoses I really don't use any until I keg. I usually pour my kettle into the fermenter.

I'm Happy I didn't throw this beer out.

I smelt it in the glass carboy and cannot really smell any thing too off the beer is crystal clear.

If I get my camera working I will take a few pictures.

I will be kegging this for sure and testing it out.

http:////s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc337/brewjunky/?action=view&current=beer003.jpg
This is the picture I had a California common do this and I racked to a keg and it turned out fine.

My porter is also doing this.

This beer is brilliantly clear it just has mold or something on the top I dont know what this is .

I've had that on occasion. It's like a very thin white film that reminds me of ice floating in the ocean. It never effected the beer in a negative way and I have no clue what it was.

yeah it doesn't seem to effect the taste at all and I have had this in 3 batches already

I read palmers book and I think it could be mold.

He said that mold can sometimes grow on the top but can be skimmed off and will not effect the taste of the beer at all.