Mashing in a Kettle

I mash in my brewing kettle with horrible results. I have an 8 gallon kettle with morebeer's false bottom:

http://morebeer.com/view_product/74..._Kettle_Screen_for_8_Gallon_Heavy_Duty_Kettle

There are a few inches of dead space between the bottom of the kettle and the false bottom but was told I could achieve the same results and the dead space would not be an issue with vorlauf.

I follow temperatures as closely as possible, doing simple single step with just 2 row and crystal, mash out, and batch sparge at the right temperature.

The only thing I do different is I add a about half a gallon more water than the 1.25 ratio beersmith gives me to make sure there is 1-2 inches above the top of the grain bed. I think this probably hurts but I can't imagine it hurting this bad.

I have done 4 batches of all grain now with 40-50% efficiency. I mash out, use as little sparge water as necessary, treat my water with 5.2. My results recently have been dropping. My latest batch I added an extra pound of 2 row and still was .017 off on my OG estimate.

Should I call the false bottom a sunk cost and create a cooler mash tun? I wanted to get a larger kettle and use this kettle as my mash tun but I can't get the results I work for. I've been drinking too many 4.5 IPA's!

Any help would be amazing. I know there are 1million posts on how to increase efficiency, but I was hoping there is something small I'm missing or someone else has tried mashing in a kettle and either turned their results around or switched to a cooler.

Thanks!!

If all the volumes are correct, and you end up with, lets say 6.5 gallons pre-boil? Lets say that the false bottom is doing its job. After all, its just a filter. Its not a magical starch conversion catalyst. All I could say is that your thermometer is reading WAY TOO LOW. Is that even possible? I could imagine if you thought you were mashing at 152 and you were at 135 you would have really bad efficiency. Thats my $0.02. Check it by taking your temperature. If you're still angry about 4 bad batches of beer, the temperature gauge should read 102*F. Or, measure the temp of boiling water, since you're at sea level, it should be right at 212.

Double check your temps and your crush. How are you maintaining temps during the mash? Equipment should not make much, if any difference for batch sparging.

Coolers are cheap and work very well IME.

Don't give up on the kettle! If you're just starting out AG, I can offer the encouragement that it took me at least 10 batches to really get my system down. Don't change too much in your process from batch to batch.

As for tips, you said "use as little sparge water as necessary." How much are you using? I fly sparge and like to have about half of my preboil volume to come from the sparge water. I take my time sparging, try to evenly distribute the sparge water on top of the bed, try to exactly calculate how much sparge water I need to get to my preboil volume, etc.

And I always hate it when I ask a question on HBT and I get people responding with suggestions that make me feel stupid, but here are the things you should double check for accuracy:

-your hydrometer and thermometer
-your method of calculating volume
-make sure your samples are well stirred before measuring
-take gravity readings immediately after runoff

BTW, I have an 8gal heavy duty and I calculated the volume in the kettle. If you stick a ruler straight down to the bottom of the kettle, each inch represents about .7gal of liquid.

Check your crush. Who is doing your crush?

Use even more water, I have more fermentability than I should because I direct fire with as much water as I can fit.

As long as you calculate right, your abv will be higher, but the beer may be a bit dryer.

I love my process and beer.

Why are you using, "as little sparge water as possible"? I don't understand that. You should use as much sparge water as necessary. There is nothing wrong with sparge water. Your low efficiency can be attributed to leaving sugar in the kettle. Do you take SG readings of your final runnings?

The space between the false bottom and the bottom of the kettle is not important. That is not your dead space. Dead space is between the bottom of the kettle and your spigot. You can fill that space with aquarium safe marbles (don't use non-aquarium marbles or aquarium stones).

If you are batch sparging, you could switch to fly sparging which will increase efficiency with a false bottom.

Lastly, how is your water and pH?

Gotta check that pH. I've heard mixed reviews about using the 5.2 stabilizer, and enough of it was bad to make me not use it. Water chemistry is a killer.

I also wonder how long you're staying at each temperature, which will differ depending on what type of beer you're making and what types of adjuncts, etc. you're using which can also effect your efficiency.

+1 on using more sparge water. No sense in leaving any of that sugary goodness behind.

My water is at pH level of 8. Someone at the LHBS said he uses gypsum to add hardness and drop it down which is what I was planning on using with my next batch. I have some testers but as of now I was just going off the water report for my county and word of mouth. The 5.2 has not changed anything for the better with me so far (2 batches).

I'm probably just wrong here after reading your replies buy my little sparge water comment meant more that I try to not leave water behind with dissolved sugars.

I have two thermometers, one was a cheap one that came with my first brew kit, and the second was a more expensive one that is in my kettle now

http://morebeer.com/view_product/18690/102228/Dial_Thermometer_3_Face_x_6_Probe

I think the dial thermometer might be off because my efficiency has been dropping since getting that "upgrade."

I rest at 151-154 depending on the recipe for 60 minutes. When I mash out I let that rest for 10. For the batch sparge I let that rest for 10 before collecting the run-offs. I insulate well and don't see any temperature change

I'm buying the grains from the LHBS and they have a mill there where I crush my grains. I just use the default setting they have it set at.

I plan on getting a bad-a thermometer before my next batch and using gypsum to help treat the water. Also I'll use more sparge water and see if I can improve my results!

bigchristheman said:

I plan on getting a bad-a thermometer before my next batch and using gypsum to help treat the water. Also I'll use more sparge water and see if I can improve my results!

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The thermometer is a good idea but I would not dump gypsum in without a full understanding of your water and how to treat it for brewing. First step is to get some pH tests strips and see if you mash is way out of range. It may not even be a problem. Chances are it's the crush. Many HBS crush very coarse. Simply using a finer crush could have a huge impact on your numbers. Do you know anybody with a mill? Are you a member of a homebrew club?

The 3 things that made greatest jump in numbers in my case (most to least important):

* finer crush
* calculate exact amount of water based on amount of malt both for mashing and for sparging (3:1 water-to-malt for mashing)
* stir the mash often during rests (each 5' or so)

I started with efficiency of 65-67%, now it's around 80%. I must say, I never did single-step mash, nor I never mashed in cooler, generally in Europe we do stepping temperature mashing in kettle, rarely decoction (b'cause you can use melanoidin malt to get the same effect, isn't that much easier?).

Your pH level of 8 is way to high. Start there and try and get that under control, because your thermometer may or may not be off. Check out the water salts that are available at the LHBS. One way or another, you're going to get them anyways. So before you buy your bad-a thermometer, screw around with the salts to see if dropping the pH to a more acceptable range will improve your efficiency.

If you have "Designing Great Beers," take a look at the water section. It does a good job of explaining what each salt does in terms of raising or lower pH. Then check out EZ Water Calculator to figure out and guesstimate the pH of your mash, which can be found here on HBT.

The No. 1 factor affecting efficiency is the crush. The No. 2 factor is accurate volume measurement and the associated math calculations. Look to the crush first. You should be able to easily attain 65% with even the crudest batch sparge procedures. Fly sparging should easily get you past 70%.

It's best not to mess with the water chemistry unless you have some idea of what you are doing. Otherwise, it will be hit or miss with the odds highly in favor of the miss. I've used the PH 5.2 product many times without problems. Can't say that it helped things, but it certainly did no harm that I can detect.

It's the crush! Don't totally rely on the LHBS's mill setting. Learn what proper malt grist looks like. You may have to run the grain through the shop mill twice if it's too coarse on the first run and you have no way to adjust the shop mill.

1. Are you checking for conversion ?

2. Do you have pH test strips to check the pH in the mash? That's where it matters most.

DrawTap88 said:

Your pH level of 8 is way to high.

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That's the water pH not the mash pH. With pH 8 water you could very easily have a great mash pH. It depends on what level of roasted grains go into the mash. There are 2 schools for adjusting mash pH. One uses salts and requires that you have a bunch of detailed info on your water and then adds salts based on the type of beer your making. The second has you take a reading of the mash and use food grade acid to lower the pH into the proper range. The 3rd is to just dump in the 5.2 junk and keep your fingers crossed. It's more complicated then that but before you get into water adjustments check you mash pH and see if it's even a problem.

Also, change the crush and see what that does. Unless your mash pH is crazy whacked it will not have as big an impact as the crush.

maida7 said:

That's the water pH not the mash pH. With pH 8 water you could very easily have a great mash pH. It depends on what level of roasted grains go into the mash. There are 2 schools for adjusting mash pH. One uses salts and requires that you have a bunch of detailed info on your water and then adds salts based on the type of beer your making. The second has you take a reading of the mash and use food grade acid to lower the pH into the proper range. The 3rd is to just dump in the 5.2 junk and keep your fingers crossed. It's more complicated then that but before you get into water adjustments check you mash pH and see if it's even a problem.

Also, change the crush and see what that does. Unless your mash pH is crazy whacked it will not have as big an impact as the crush.

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+1 Excellent advice. Water chemistry should be near the bottom of your list of things to check. Also, I never failed to achieve conversion in the mash and I would expect that is also not the problem. I still think it's most likely the crush.

bigchristheman said:

My water is at pH level of 8. Someone at the LHBS said he uses gypsum to add hardness and drop it down which is what I was planning on using with my next batch. I have some testers but as of now I was just going off the water report for my county and word of mouth. The 5.2 has not changed anything for the better with me so far (2 batches).

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Where did you get your water pH reading? Water pH is not nearly as important as mash pH. Many of the other suggestions above are good as well. But in addition to increasing yield, mashing at the "sweet spot" of the pH scale (5.2-5.4) will also improve the flavor profile of your beers.

You want to check your mash pH about 5 min or so after mashing in. And be careful with any adjustments (5.2, Gypsum, chalk, CaCl). If you're adding or removing something to/from your brewing water you should know why you are doing it. I know a guy that lives about 20 min from me. We go to the same brew shop. But I don't use the same mineral and salt additions because our water profiles are worlds apart (different source water)

Make sure you're watching crush, temperature, etc. like mentioned above. But also invest in a report of your brewing water. You can get one from most municipal water supplies. If your water company does not give you the right type of information (mine doesn't either), there is a decent report available by sending a sample of your water to Ward Labs in NE. I collected a sample during a brew day, mailed it out on a Monday, and had my results in hand by Thursday. It cost me less than $20 (that included the price to mail them the sample)

With your report in hand, head over to the Brew Science forum and study up on mineral additions, their impact on mash and final water pH, and residual alkalinity. I have highly alkaline water and was getting inconsistent results both in the efficiency of my mash and the overall flavor of the final product until I did something about my water chemistry.

There are a lot of chemistry types on that board who, if you can hang on through some of the technical discussions and keep asking questions until you understand, can really help you improve your efficiency and the overall quality of your beer.

And as you can see by the post above mine, everybody has different opinions. My only other suggestion is to evaluate your process in light of our many suggestions and try those suggestions that you think will help you improve. And only make one (two at most) changes to your process at a time. If you change 4 or 5 things and your beer improves, you won't know which one did it. The same goes for making the same 4 or 5 changes that result in worse beer. You won't know which one to cut out next time.

bigchristheman said:

...
The only thing I do different is I add a about half a gallon more water than the 1.25 ratio beersmith gives me to make sure there is 1-2 inches above the top of the grain bed. I think this probably hurts but I can't imagine it hurting this bad.
...
I ... use as little sparge water as necessary
...

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There is no point in doing that. Why would you need 1-2 inches of water above your grain bed?

You should use less mash water and more sparge water. 1.25 qts/pound of grain is sufficient enough to convert the starches to sugars. You need more sparge water to rinse the sugars from the grains after mashing.

I bet if you reduced mash water and increased sparge water, doing two separate batch sparges and vorlauf/drain in between the two your efficiency would increase dramatically.

pkeeler said:

Why are you using, "as little sparge water as possible"? I don't understand that. You should use as much sparge water as necessary. There is nothing wrong with sparge water. Your low efficiency can be attributed to leaving sugar in the kettle. Do you take SG readings of your final runnings?

The space between the false bottom and the bottom of the kettle is not important. That is not your dead space. Dead space is between the bottom of the kettle and your spigot. You can fill that space with aquarium safe marbles (don't use non-aquarium marbles or aquarium stones).

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exactly

I say, start with the easy stuff first.

Based on the number of threads I read here, the usual culprit is poor crush. Are your crushing your own grain, crushing at the LHBS, or ordering pre-crushed grain?

I know I've had good results with precrushed grain ordered from Austin Homebrew Supply. You might try a batch from them or some other source you KNOW gives acceptable results.

Previous posts on sparge water volume are spot-on, too.

As a few others have said, the water pH has little to do with the mash pH. My water pH is around 8.0, but my mashes, even with light malts, are around 5.5, lower when using roasted malts.

According to the City of Palo Alto, 85% of your water comes from Hetch Hetchy, which should be fairly soft (since it's snow-melt water). That means it will be far easier to get the right mash pH despite a higher water pH (all else being equal). From the 2009 report, I see the following average numbers:

pH: 8.7
Cl: 9.5
SO4: 16.6
Ca: 12
Mg: 4.5
Na: 14
Hardness (as CaCO3): 55
Alkalinity (as CaCO3): 50

That's some pretty nice water, IMO. For a lot of styles, you'll benefit from additional salts, but it's a lot better than my water.

jpc said:

As a few others have said, the water pH has little to do with the mash pH. My water pH is around 8.0, but my mashes, even with light malts, are around 5.5, lower when using roasted malts.

According to the City of Palo Alto, 85% of your water comes from Hetch Hetchy, which should be fairly soft (since it's snow-melt water). That means it will be far easier to get the right mash pH despite a higher water pH (all else being equal). From the 2009 report, I see the following average numbers:

pH: 8.7
Cl: 9.5
SO4: 16.6
Ca: 12
Mg: 4.5
Na: 14
Hardness (as CaCO3): 55
Alkalinity (as CaCO3): 50

That's some pretty nice water, IMO. For a lot of styles, you'll benefit from additional salts, but it's a lot better than my water.

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Oh I envy you and your water. I would rather build up my mineral profile than try to dilute everything in mine.
pH 7.6
Na 23
K 1
Ca 56
Mg 26
CaCO3 248
SO4-S 3
Cl 10
CO3 < 1
HCO3 302
CaCO3 247

How much wort are you leaving behind in your MLT?

jpc said:

As a few others have said, the water pH has little to do with the mash pH. My water pH is around 8.0, but my mashes, even with light malts, are around 5.5, lower when using roasted malts.

According to the City of Palo Alto, 85% of your water comes from Hetch Hetchy, which should be fairly soft (since it's snow-melt water). That means it will be far easier to get the right mash pH despite a higher water pH (all else being equal). From the 2009 report, I see the following average numbers:

pH: 8.7
Cl: 9.5
SO4: 16.6
Ca: 12
Mg: 4.5
Na: 14
Hardness (as CaCO3): 55
Alkalinity (as CaCO3): 50

That's some pretty nice water, IMO. For a lot of styles, you'll benefit from additional salts, but it's a lot better than my water.

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Agreed. Water chemistry's probably not your problem.

It's almost certainly the crush, that is assuming the volume measurements are accurate and there are no other calculation errors.

I am food processing my grains now, there is no better crush. I also dough in with much more water than most people. No problems, except that I cycle the water back throuigh the bed a time or 2 more due to more bits.

My efficiency is great, and the extra mash water makes my wort a little more fermentable. I may re-think the extra fermentability later, but for now my beer is turning out great.

Catt22 said:

It's almost certainly the crush, that is assuming the volume measurements are accurate and there are no other calculation errors.

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I'd certainly agree, the crush is a likely culprit. However, a poor crush should be a consistently poor crush, and wouldn't necessarily explain this:

I have done 4 batches of all grain now with 40-50% efficiency. I mash out, use as little sparge water as necessary, treat my water with 5.2. My results recently have been dropping.

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That's what makes me think the OP needs to have some known test points to move forward in a troubleshooting process.

XXguy said:

I'd certainly agree, the crush is a likely culprit. However, a poor crush should be a consistently poor crush, and wouldn't necessarily explain this:

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I agree, but we can't be sure that the shop mill was not adjusted somewhere along the line or maybe the gap has changed due to wear and tear. Any significant change in the crush should be fairly obvious if you know what a proper grist looks like.