Huge Dry hop amount,but no aroma in IPA!

I brewed up a AG Fury clone about a month ago. It calls for about 7oz of DH. I dry hop in the keg, when i pulled a sample last night there was none of the piney/grapefruite aroma that is typical of this beer/hop combo. What i did get was a bit of buttery/butterscoth aroma, which im guessing is Diacetyl.

My question is, with such a huge DH amount, wouldnt it cover up some of that diacetyl? I also thought diacetyl was typically caused by stopping fermentation to early(this was in primary for 3 weeks before i racked to keg). It also fermented pretty warm for the most vigourous part of ferment-around 74 on the temp sticker on carboy. I was under the impression that warmer ferments producted more fruity esters, and not diacetyl.

Really confused by this brew.

It's not surprising the drop hop aroma is overshadowed by the diacetyl.

Diacetyl is typically the byproduct of a stressed/unhealthy fermentation. If the yeast were in poor health and/or flocculated too early, you're left with unpleasant fermentation byproducts.

You can try pitching an actively fermenting yeast starter to cleanup the diacetyl. You'll need to use a slightly higher attenuating yeast, assuming you reached the proper FG.

Would the warm ferm. temps be considered 'unhealthy'? I pitched 1056 from a starter, fermented strong from 1076 to 1006 in about 7 days.

Ive had diacetyl in one other brew, but in that case it was MUCH stronger. I tried krausening like you suggest, to no avail. Had to dump it.

Weak yeast activity is considered "unhealthy". That can occur from excessively cold temps, overly scarred cells, low viability, low vitality, etc.

Warm temperatures accelerate yeast activity, but often lead to other issues (esters, fusels, etc.).

Did you rule out bacteria contamination?

The only time I've had issues with diacetyl is when I built a properly sized starter from old yeast (8 months past expiration). In that situation, I was able to pitch a new yeast starter and reduce the diacetyl. Needless to say, I don't culture old yeast anymore.

The yeast was reused, but its a practice i do all the time, as well as many others. This was only the 3rd batch used for this yeast.

This yeast was very healthy i would say, in that it took a 1076 down to 1006 in a week.

I cant rule out contamination, but I have been using the same process on the last 15 batches or so. I use One Step on everything that touches the beer post boil.
My only thought is the better bottle I use has some tiny scratches around the upper portion where the krausen crusts up (had to use a carboy brush to get some old stuck gunk off) I suppose next batch i could ferment in a bucket and see if its any different, but i really should do the exact same batch for a more exact test.

Ok, I'm leaning "contamination" now:

1. 3rd generation yeast
2. Achieved proper FG
3. Inadequate sanitizer
4. Detectable diacetyl level

OneStep is not a proper sanitizer. You should use either Star San or Iodophor, especially if you're repitching yeast.

Every time you repitch, you're multiplying the bacteria count and poor sanitation practices significantly amplify the effect.

When I reuse yeast (with proper sanitation), I rinse with chlorine dioxide to kill any residual bacteria before making a starter.

Ill pick up some starsan for the next batch. My last three batches have all been a bit 'off', even though i have been using the same process (1 step cleaner) for the past 30 batches or so.

Few more questions:

1. How long had this been dry hopping before you sampled?
2. At what temp?
3. What sort of vessel did you use to dry hop with? Hop sack? Nylon stock? Hop ball?
3. With that vessel, were the hops given ample space to expand, yet still allow beer to easily flow through the hops(after the absorption expansion)?

See below!

Haputanlas said:

Few more questions:

1. How long had this been dry hopping before you sampled?-5 days2. At what temp?-38 F3. What sort of vessel did you use to dry hop with? Hop sack? Nylon stock? Hop ball?-nylon sock3. With that vessel, were the hops given ample space to expand, yet still allow beer to easily flow through the hops(after the absorption expansion)?Yes, plenty of room in the hop sock even with all the DH

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You should really dry hop above 60F. Otherwise, it will take significantly longer to release the hop oils (think several weeks to months).

True, i did read somewhere that many breweries thing that more hop oils are extracted at warmer temps, I have never tried it. I guess typically i condition in the keg for about 2 weeks before sampling, and have a nice hop aroma.

Ill give this one another sample on saturday, as it will have been 4 weeks since I brewed it. Still a bit green, but hopefully the buttery taste dissapates(past experience says it wont much)

Anyone else had experiexe with Dicatyle in Ales? I brewed a Bitter last summer, and it was an undrinkable buttery mess. I gotta believe its from infection, rather then a fermentation process.

Im going to try StarSan on my batch this weekend, and start over with some fresh yeast. Hopefully i get some better results.

incutrav said:

Anyone else had experiexe with Dicatyle in Ales? I brewed a Bitter last summer, and it was an undrinkable buttery mess. I gotta believe its from infection, rather then a fermentation process.

Im going to try StarSan on my batch this weekend, and start over with some fresh yeast. Hopefully i get some better results.

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yes, fermenting as warm as you did could definitely create excessive diacetyl. probably not an infection, those are rare if your sanitation is up to par.

Everything I have read states that fermenting warm is what gets rid of Diacetyl, not promotes it. This is why Diacetyl is very common in lagers, not so much for ales.

i think the warm temps, 74 i believe, are a far more likely culprit than a contamination. no doubt contamination can cause diacetyl, but the OP stated in the OP that he fermented at ~74, i think that's the obvious issue.

...unless you have some other reason to believe it's infected, very low or lowering FG, visible signs of infection, etc., i'd say the buttery flavor is yeast produced diacetyl. bacteria kicks a lot of diacetyl too, but it doesn't quite have the distinct butter-y flavor of that produced by yeast during a hot ferment.

lamarguy said:

A warm fermentation (that remains warm) does not result in high diacetyl levels. Unhealthy yeast and sluggish fermentations produce high levels of diacetyl that don't get converted at the end of fermentation.

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Correct.

Some people actually use a Diacetyl rest to help clean up the remaining diacetyl. It is typical to raise the beer temp 5-10 degrees for 24-48 hours to give the yeast another opportunity to finish of the remaining diacetyl.

Haputanlas said:

Correct.

Some people actually use a Diacetyl rest to help clean up the remaining diacetyl. It is typical to raise the beer temp 5-10 degrees for 24-48 hours to give the yeast another opportunity to finish of the remaining diacetyl.

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However, I've never tried a Diacetyl rest after my beer's been cold-crashed, kegged, and dry hopped. Not sure if there will be enough yeast left, or if the environment will be capable of doing this.

Haputanlas said:

However, I've never tried a Diacetyl rest after my beer's been cold-crashed, kegged, and dry hopped.

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Ya, once you separate the beer from the yeast, your only option is to pitch actively fermenting yeast (which the OP tried).

lamarguy said:

A warm fermentation (that remains warm) does not result in high diacetyl levels.

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somewhat correct, but i wouldn't suggest to someone that they raise the temp above 80 degrees for a d rest because ferment temps were mid 70's. it's just not gonna clear up that much diacetyl at that point.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

somewhat correct, but i wouldn't suggest to someone that they raise the temp above 80 degrees for a d rest because ferment temps were mid 70's. it's just not gonna clear up that much diacetyl at that point.

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Thanks, I appreciate the credit.

So, the next time I ferment a saison and let it go to the mid 80's, I should probably go ahead and heat it to mid 90's for a diacetyl rest, correct?

I do notice my warm fermented Belgians tend to have that "movie popcorn" character. Weird, because I always attributed it to the stick I butter I add to the boil. Live and learn, I guess....

lamarguy said:

Thanks, I appreciate the credit.

So, the next time I ferment a saison and let it go to the mid 80's, I should probably go ahead and heat it to mid 90's for a diacetyl rest, correct?

I do notice my warm fermented Belgians tend to have that "movie popcorn" character. Weird, because I always attributed it to the stick I butter I add to the boil. Live and learn, I guess....

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I believe we're talking about the chico strain here, not Belgians. obviously those are fermented warm to get the esters desirable in the style. i really think you're just finding something in each post to nitpick for the sake of argument, as per the bolded text. where did i imply you'd raise the temp in a beer like that? in fact, i believe i said i'd suggest nothing of the sort in the OPs situation. is it that hard on your little ego to fathom that we both made valid points, and either or both of us could be right?

^thanks.

incutrav, i think the thing here is that a few different things about your process could have caused the diacetyl your tasting. an infection could easily produce this problem, and the chances you have one are increased here because you're not using a sanitizer. also, temps that warm would cause a lot of diacetyl precursor to be produced in the beer, and unless you warmed the beer up even more at the end of fermentation, diacetyl would be present in the keg or bottle. definitely start using a no rinse sanitizer, i recommend star san. and look into some form of temp control to keep temps in a more appropriate range.

This thread is full of gems, some still there and some deleated.

The original question was about why the dry hop didn't cover up the buttery flavor. High ferment temps, unhealthy yeast and some sort or contamination are the likely causes of the flavor. The cause of the dry hop not covering it up is likely that the temp was too low for too short a time to cover up the high level of the buttery flavor.
I have ran into less dry hop flavor before while not thinking to subtract the cold crash time from the dry hop time.

brewingmeister said:

This thread is full of gems, some still there and some deleated.

The original question was about why the dry hop didn't cover up the buttery flavor. High ferment temps, unhealthy yeast and some sort or contamination are the likely causes of the flavor. The cause of the dry hop not covering it up is likely that the temp was too low for too short a time to cover up the high level of the buttery flavor.
I have ran into less dry hop flavor before while not thinking to subtract the cold crash time from the dry hop time.

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i think that's probably it, as for why the hops didn't show up and over shadow the off flavors. i always dry hop warm, 70ish, and 5 days is about the minimum for good hops aroma. my guess would be that at half that temp, it would take twice as long in general.

incutrav said:

Everything I have read states that fermenting warm is what gets rid of Diacetyl, not promotes it. This is why Diacetyl is very common in lagers, not so much for ales.

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Fermenting warm can make diacetyl worse in some strains. You're probably thinking about a diacetyl rest which is when you bring up the temp of the beer a few degrees after fermentation has completed.

Personally I'm very very sensitive to diacetyl and can't handle even a moderate level of it in my beers. I bring all my ale fermentations from 62-65 to room temp for a few days before bottling as an extra precaution against diacetyl.

One step is not a sanitizer, its a cleanser. I know iknow..off topic, don't ban me..

Some good points here. I did pick up some StarSan yesterday for the batch im doing tomorrow, so ill see how that goes. I did pull a sample again last night, as its been on the DH for 6 days at 38 degrees. Some of the diacetyl had dissapated, and some more hop aroma was coming threw. Im going to pull the keg out and let it sit at room temp until next weekend to see if it gets better yet.

Side note-I was giving all my equipment a bath last night, and in my better bottle i noticed tons of little pits in the plastic towards the top were the krausen crusts up. Typically i would soak my carboy in PBW, and set it upside down to loosen up the crust, which worked well, but it would appear it caused the plastic to be pitted. Anyone experienced this with a better bottle and PBW?

Im not comfortable using it anymore with all those little spots for bugs to hide.