Hot tap water to start?

I'm getting ready to do my second AG brew this weekend. Since it takes a bit longer to do an AG brew, I am thinking of using hot water from the tap in my process. I did a test boiling 5 gallons of water - one straight from the cold water tap and one from the hot water tap and I halved about 30% off the time to reach boiling.

It doesn't seem like this should have an impact on my water/beer quality but I figured I'd ask the experts. What say ye?

The hot water tap is from your hot water heater of course. That thing is likely filled with a lot of sediment and minerals. The general consensus is to not use the hot water tap for drinking water and therefore not brewing water either. Perhaps boil a gallon of each and do a post boil (and cooling ) taste test. See if you notice a difference.

No water heaters are dirty.I start with cold tap water but let it sit for about three days so its room temp.You won`t need that long unless you start with 18 gallons like I do.

As above and hot water can leach stuff out of old pipes. So you are safer using cold water for all your cooking needs. I live in a house that is 54 yrs old so I take no chances with useing hot water for anything other then washing and showering.

Thanks folks. I hadn't thought about the leaching part but the picking up minerals part did come to mind. Guess we'll be starting at 60 something...

This comes up from time to time. I think the best advice is to do what was already said; take some hot tap water and do a side by side comparison with cold tap water after boiling and cooling. If there is no difference to you, there's likely not going to be any difference to you after it is turned into beer.

If you're like me and have basically brand new pipes, brand new water heater, and a brand new faucet, there shouldn't be any leaching or build up of minerals. That being said, I have a filter on my cold water side so I use that instead of hot water.

Take it fwiw.

Can you taste small amounts of lead? Coffee, Soups and beer. If I am going to consume it, I always start with cold water.

And where is the lead coming from? I have PEX pipes.

You could invest in a small 120v tankless water heater for just your kitchen sink.. I have a whole house tankless that I can have whatever temp up to 140f. I have done both hot and cold and have not noticed a difference.

edmanster said:

You could invest in a small 120v tankless water heater for just your kitchen sink.. I have a whole house tankless that I can have whatever temp up to 140f. I have done both hot and cold and have not noticed a difference.

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Or have a stainless lined / glass lines water heater. The concentration should of anything should be no more in hot water than cold provided there aren't other problems in your lines.

I agree, the tankless route is probably the best solution if you're concerned about your water quality. That's the reason I purchased the filter unit. I will eventually get a whole house filter unit. My water has negligible lead or any other heavy metals but it tastes terrible...

I don't know about all this malarkey. I use hot water to start up my batches all the time - i have had some really great turnout on beers. I think if you let the hot run for a bit in the beginning you are good to go.

I jsut don't buy this, your hot water tank is dirty business. Why would it be dirty? It gets the same water through my filters and the cold does? Last time I checked, minerals are good for beers, and sediments will drop out (if they are even present) in your trub.

Besides, lead only leaches from brass fittings, not copper. You have lots of super old brass fittings, and acid PH water?

If you've ever smelled/tasted water from a seriously bad hot water heater, you'd know never to let that stuff touch your beer. Hot water heaters are more than just a holding tank with a heating element.

Although a tankless HWH on your brew stand would be cool, you could just mix the hot and cold water like the DFH pub, THAT would be a time saver!

Barc said:

Or have a stainless lined / glass lines water heater. The concentration should of anything should be no more in hot water than cold provided there aren't other problems in your lines.

I agree, the tankless route is probably the best solution if you're concerned about your water quality. That's the reason I purchased the filter unit. I will eventually get a whole house filter unit. My water has negligible lead or any other heavy metals but it tastes terrible...

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Check this out:

http://www.wholly-water.com/

http://www.pure-drinking-water.com/...een=CTGY&Store_Code=LSIMC&Category_Code=C0002

No, I am not joking haha. I have this in my house, removed all the sulfur tasting compounds, pulls insoluble minerals out of the water and leaves soluble in. It recharges itself without any additives (no adding bags of salt to a softener).

We couldn't stand the water from our well with high levels of sulfer and iron, now everybody loves our water, and it makes great beer due to good calcium and mineral content.

CidahMastah said:

I don't know about all this malarkey.

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Ditto, And no a water heater is not more than a holding tank and a heating element. It is a holding tank with a heating element.

We live in a litigious society, if there were any harm to come from such a nefarious device as a water heater, you can bet the ambulance chasers would be all over it like a fat kid on a donut. As for lead in brass, come on. How many moles of lead can be consumed from a piece of brass used in a water fitting. Oh, and that faucet that mixes hot and cold water there above your sink, It's chrome plated brass, probably made in Asia, by kids, with $hitloads of
lead.

Northcalais40 said:

Ditto, And no a water heater is not more than a holding tank and a heating element. It is a holding tank with a heating element.

We live in a litigious society, if there were any harm to come from such a nefarious device as a water heater, you can bet the ambulance chasers would be all over it like a fat kid on a donut. As for lead in brass, come on. How many moles of lead can be consumed from a piece of brass used in a water fitting. Oh, and that faucet that mixes hot and cold water there above your sink, It's chrome plated brass, probably made in Asia, by kids, with $hitloads of
lead.

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You've never had a hot water heater with a bad anode rod then.

why would the water heater have sediment and not the cold water? after a while the water heater will get replaced. the pipes may never get replaced. right? or im missing something

Here comes the science:

The insides of a hot water heater contain metals that can, and do corrode. Some of the pipes in your home that are not made of PVC may have lead soldering. Hot water will dissolve metals, especially lead, much quicker than cold water will. Not to mention that over the years of daily use of drawing gallons throughout the day in cycles causes the water from the local utility, with all of it's impurities to collect and precipitate in the bottom of the hot water heater. This is a prime breeding ground for bacteria. Perhaps they cannot survive in an environment where the water is around 140°, but as soon as the water cools down enough due to a power outage or extended leave (if you turn off your water heater), all the necessary nutrients are there in an 80 gallon soup.

I personally saw a demonstration by a company that was in the business of manufacturing and selling water distillers for the consumer market. They had 2 five gallon glass jugs filled with water. One of the jugs was filled with with the water that been taken from an 80 gallon water heater that had been in use for a few years, and boiled down from 80 to 5 gallons. The other was filled with distilled water. While the distilled water was crystal clear, the other had a 3 inch layer of precipitate containing heavy metals, impurities, and bacteria. Truly a revolting sight. Also, ask any gas or electric utility worker or plumber who does work and repairs on water heaters and they will confirm this and probably offer a few horror stories of their own.

http://everything2.com/title/Never+drink+or+cook+with+hot+tap+water

For those of you who think this is 'malarky' it can kill infants. Please be careful.

If the sediment in the tank came from the water why would the hot water have more sediment? It would have less. Odds are if your hot water tastes bad you removed too many minerals while heating. Distilled water tastes like crap because its too clean.

Take hot water from the tap and chill it. Do the same with the cold. Taste them both. If they both taste the same and good, I would use the hot as it would save a ton of time.

If the anode in your tank needs to be replaced you need to do it or buy a new heater or buy more insurance.

I hear all that you are saying, but I don't think that, with all the things you have listed, the lead, the corrosion, etc, (if it is even present), is more harmful than consuming the beer we make.

Any nasties growing in your water tank, will be killed by the subsequent boiling of the wort. And they would have to be tough bastards to survive hot water tank heat. Not to mention my filtration system at the well entrance is .1 micron.

I respectfully disagree. If it was a frequent baby killer, I think it would be all over CNN.

I consider myself a person of at or above average intelligence. I think if you own your house and you know your situation you can make an educated choice. When I bought my house they did a water profile analysis and if I had a second independent company do a comprehensive one. If those results would have been unsatisfatory, then I would be concerned. I also know my house was replumbed within the last 20 years or less (no lead solder here).

Bend, the beer is going to kill you long before the water will. And I dont give beer to infants.

The heat corrodes the metals faster and more so than cold water. Do what you want, but you are really playing with a slow smoldering fire. This is something I learned in the culinary industry long before getting into brewing.

Mikethepoolguy said:

Bend, the beer is going to kill you long before the water will. And I dont give beer to infants.

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Some people might be using hot water for Infant Formulas. Could be deadly toxic if so.

BendBrewer said:

Some people might be using hot water for Infant Formulas. Could be deadly toxic if so.

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Reliable scientific source please.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/29/health/29real.html?_r=1&em&ex=1202101200&en=453d58502ccfca36&ei=5087%0A

The claim has the ring of a myth. But environmental scientists say it is real.

The reason is that hot water dissolves contaminants more quickly than cold water, and many pipes in homes contain lead that can leach into water. And lead can damage the brain and nervous system, especially in young children.

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http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/leadinfo.htm#where

#

Drinking water. Your home might have plumbing with lead or lead solder. Call your local health department or water supplier to find out about testing your water. You cannot see, smell or taste lead, and boiling your water will not get rid of lead. If you think your plumbing might have lead in it:

* Use only cold water for drinking and cooking.
* Run water for 15 to 30 seconds before drinking it, especially if you have not used your water for a few hours.


I really don't know why some of you are being obtuse. Ignorance has a simple cure. Go argue with the EPA if you want.

BendBrewer said:

Drinking water. Your home might have plumbing with lead or lead solder. Call your local health department or water supplier to find out about testing your water. You cannot see, smell or taste lead, and boiling your water will not get rid of lead. If you think your plumbing might have lead in it:

* Use only cold water for drinking and cooking.
* Run water for 15 to 30 seconds before drinking it, especially if you have not used your water for a few hours.


I really don't know why some of you are being obtuse. Ignorance has a simple cure. Go argue with the EPA if you want.

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And we're still being obtuse if we're using PEX-plumbed systems, copper pipes installed ourselves with lead-free solder and an on-demand hot water heater too?

If you don't know the condition of your water or your supply system (including hot water heater), you're taking a chance, sure...

Of course you could have your hot AND cold water tested and be done with it.

Lots of ways to approach it without being "obtuse"...

The Environmental Protection Agency says that older homes are more likely to have lead pipes and fixtures, but that even newer plumbing advertised as “lead-free” can still contain as much as 8 percent lead.

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Yes, the word is "obtuse". Again, go argue with the EPA and for God's sake don't allow young children to consume water from the hot water tap. It isn't worth the risk.

If you have lead pipes or lead solder in your pipes, your home is probably older... much older. Lead pipes haven't been used in about 70 years, maybe more. So, if your house isn't that old, chances are you have something different (Cu, PVC, PEX, etc). Lead solder hasn't been used on drinking water pipes in 30 years, that I know of. Probably longer.

And a demo by a water distiller company selling water distillers using distilled water against an unknown water heater in USVI where the water is terrible is not a reasonable, apples to apples comparison between a relatively modern home which has a glass or stainless lined water heater. I've yet to see a reasonable experiment done anywhere by anyone that proves otherwise. I've seen several people telling me that I have to buy this or that at several 10s of thousands each but never have I seen anyone come up with a valid reason to do so other than another, more invasive and thus hard to fix problem. That means your cold water is also screwed.

And bacteria in a water heater? If it is set above about 150 (I'll check the regs) there shouldn't be anything alive in there. And if there is, you have another problem since they are eating something. Bacteria need at least some sort of food to live... If they are eating your tank from the inside, you need to replace it anyway. If they are eating something coming into the tank, you need to do something about the water coming in; either filter or fix a leak or something...

Source: I do that **** for a living. If you want to call someone ignorant, you may want to think again.

Edit: Didn't bother checking the regs since we're all being obtuse. I'll go on the little bit of info I've gained doing this sort of thing over the years and call it about right.

BendBrewer said:

Yes, the word is "obtuse". Again, go argue with the EPA and for God's sake don't allow young children to consume water from the hot water tap. It isn't worth the risk.

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Where is the risk?

I work with those guys at the EPA... quite frequently. Do you? I can tell you one thing, they make sure they have every possibility covered so they make sure you, as the end user, are protected from yourself.

If you'd read the actual language of your own link, you might find out that it says the words like "might contain" but no where in it does it say "all" and "must" and other "definitive" words...

Whose being obtuse now?

I am providing information directly from the EPA. You seem to be pulling stuff out of your ass and not backing up anything that you claim.

Go argue with the EPA. The information I supplied came from them.

Plumbing isn't science. Someone asked of scientific info. Drink at your own risk and the risk of your children. I really don't care. Just thought I would pass on actual information on the subject. You do with it what you want.

BendBrewer said:

I am providing information directly from the EPA. You seem to be pulling stuff out of your ass and not backing up anything that you claim.

Go argue with the EPA. The information I supplied came from them.

Plumbing isn't science. Someone asked of scientific info. Drink at your own risk and the risk of your children. I really don't care. Just thought I would pass on actual information on the subject. You do with it what you want.

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I do argue with the EPA. I thought I said that already... But, just because you're smart, or at least can use a search engine, I am going to actually bother finding google responses to my claims... These claims were made, by me, without google but I claimed I could back it up... So...

Proof? Hold on, let me pull some stuff out of my ass...

From your own link:

Drinking water. Your home might have plumbing with lead or lead solder. Call your local health department or water supplier to find out about testing your water. You cannot see, smell or taste lead, and boiling your water will not get rid of lead. If you think your plumbing might have lead in it:


I have a brand new house... It does not contain any. I built it. I know.


Let's go to the lead pipe theory...

2nd link on google this time:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/449062/the_truth_about_the_lead_pipes_in_your.html?cat=72

Lemme pull the pertinent info:

Chances are if your home is over 70 years old, you have at least some lead pipes in your home.


OK, lead solder...

I'll go with something from a school near and dear to me...

http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he395.html

The N.C. Building Code Council banned lead solder in 1985.

Like I said, I do this stuff for a living, at least that is part of what I do. If you did it day in, day out, and then had know-it-all, dare I say "obtuse," people like you come in and know everything because you read it on google, you'd get tired of it, too. You're wrong. Period. Full stop. If you'd actually read what I wrote, you'd understand why you're wrong. You're not 100% wrong, but you're much closer to 100% than most folks on here are to 0% correct which is what you are claiming.

I'll say it again for clarity. If you have an older home, as in pre WWII, it may have lead pipes. If you have a home over about 30 years old (in certain states, it may be actually older, or newer, which was a new one on me since I deal with Federal Regs daily), you may have lead solder. And if you have bacteria in your water, you have other problems that aren't associated with your water heater, at least it isn't the source of your problems.

Don't like my links? I don't care. I've wasted enough time on it. Have fun. I'm out.

I asked for scientific info. You posted a reliable source stating that scientists agree that the risk is small. I consider myself corrected. But you need to admit that this is an extremely qualified statement.

In my state they recently outlawed any plumbing hardware that contains any lead. But lead solder is still used. Silver solder is 10 times as expensive. Your sink's faucet is made of brass with lead. Your body absorbs a lot of water when you bathe or shower. The level of exposure is very small, to insignificant.

To conflate the EPA's decision into empirical evidence is wrong.

Northcalais40 said:

I asked for scientific info. You posted a reliable source stating that scientists agree that the risk is small. I consider myself corrected. But you need to admit that this is an extremely qualified statement.

In my state they recently outlawed any plumbing hardware that contains any lead. But lead solder is still used. Silver solder is 10 times as expensive. Your sink's faucet is made of brass with lead. Your body absorbs a lot of water when you bathe or shower. The level of exposure is very small, to insignificant.

To conflate the EPA's decision into empirical evidence is wrong.

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What state is that? Not saying your "obtuse" or anything. Curious. We don't allow ANY lead solder to be used other than in drains.

What BB is saying about lead solder is true in that it does leach a lot more lead than non-lead solder but, and here's a big but, over the lifetime of the pipe, there will be many times more lead passing through it from the source than from the lead in the solder. Can I sight a specific study? No, certainly can't. Do I remember hearing that from, oh, I don't know, an EPA rep? Yep, I can. Had he read that study? No idea. Maybe he was making it up.

Edit: OK, sorry, my final posting. I'm going to go out a-drinkin'.

Vermont. And for the record I am a carpenter who "can" do plumbing, but probably shouldn't.

Back to the original post:

Yes you can provided:
a) It tastes the same once boiled and cooled
b) The mineral content and all that mumbo jumbo is the same: you can have that tested too.

I did a blind taste with boiled water from the hot side of the faucet against boiled cold water when I was first starting out. The cold water won handily. I use well water and there are a lot of deposits and random crap in my water heater (wich is less than a decade old). I can actually see a huge difference in turbidity: the hot water is pretty much milk like before being boiled and cooled.