racking sucks

I have got most everything dialed now in the brewing process so it goes nice and smooth, except for what seems like should be the easiest part - racking to a keg. I have been pushing to the keg with C02, and twice now it just stops pushing. I had the carboy on a bucket above the keg, so it's got gravity going, and use anywhere up to 4 psi when it's stuck (but generally 1.5 psi), and nothing. I can't imagine that that wouldn't push the beer so something has to be going on. I have just the gas connector with no hose on the other side for CO2 to escape.

i don't know if it clogs or what but it's generally a cluster**** after that. tonight after it stopped I popped the lid, removed the gas connector and put the hose directly in. and before I noticed the hose wasn't all the way down, had a nice foamy gallon of beer at the bottom so it is probably oxygenated as hell.

Oh yeah and when I initially hooked up the C02 it blew a nice "backdraft" bubble into the bottom of the carboy I spent 2 days cold crashing which was awesome.

Anyone have a better method; it's always a bummer to think you screwed up the finished product you put so much work into! Here is my other disaster racking

I have never had much issue racking to a keg. How do you do it? Sounds to me like you are doing a closed pressure transfer. Are you noticing any gas escaping the gas qd? You could be having poppit issues. Have you tried opening the PRV as well?

I do a version of this, especially when filling multiple cornys at once from bigger batches. I screw a beer out QD into the end of the tubing (it seems to fit perfectly, even without any hardware) and jumper the gas in(out in this case) to a beer out of the second keg as I rack. Gas QD and an occasionally an open PRV on the end receiving keg. All three on different levels (Buckets on table, first keg on a chair, last keg on floor). I have noticed that sometimes I need to give it another push to speed things along. I like to make sure it is flowing by putting my finger over the open end of the final gas QD and letting go a couple seconds later to hear/feel the built pressure escaping.

I think if I were experienceing this trouble I would start from the end and work my way back. Check the Gas QD, make sure it is fully depressed and gas is escaping. Maybe open the PRV as well when it stalls and see if you get pressure out and beer coming back in again. Then check your Beer QD, make sure your poppits are opening.

I would even test it out once with water and make sure that your regulator is actually putting out gas at that low of a pressure.
I also would not worry too much about the foamy beer you noticed when you opened the keg. You sound like someone who would purge the keg with CO2 first (right?) and if so there shouldn't have been much O2 in there to oxidize the beer anyway.

Maybe gas wasn't escaping, but I want to say I popped the lid off while pushing though and it was still stuck, maybe I have a hop pellet stuck in my dip tube. That will be fun when it's carbed up. I had racked (poured) 4.5 gallons saniclean solution through my tap handle out prior to this, so beer was flowing the other way, of course that was different liquid connector, so maybe it's the liquid connector. Sorry, what is a PRV?

PRV = Pressure Relief Valve

It's called a racking cane.

I think you're overthinking this. First of all, you should NEVER be applying pressure to a glass carboy. They are not at all designed to withstand pressure or a vacuum. Haven't you seen the "broken carboy" thread? Those things will break if you look at them funny. Applying 4 psi of pressure to one is just begging for a disaster.

Secondly, setting the carboy on a bucket is probably not enough height. You need the lowest point of the carboy to be above the highest point of the keg. If you do that, then even if you did use pressure (which, I repeat, you should NEVER do), then once the siphon started, it should continue just with gravity, and no additional pressure needed.

Thirdly, why not just use an auto siphon? It's what they're for. No more fighting with clogged tubes, or CO2 "burps" disturbing your bed of carefully cold-crashed yeast. Just gently move the carboy from the fridge to an elevated surface (I use my chest freezer fermentation chamber), then rack from it to the keg using an autosiphon. As soon as you're done, seal the keg, hook up the CO2 and purge the oxygen by pulling the PRV 4-5 times. No muss, no fuss, just clear, fresh beer.

dobe12 said:

It's called a racking cane.

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ya but when it works, it's pretty nice to push it with CO2

dobe12 said:

It's called a racking cane.

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Well, actually...

The picture you posted is an autosiphon, not a racking cane. A racking cane is just a candy-cane shaped piece of rigid acrylic tube. It doesn't have a mechanism to start the siphon - you have to either pre-fill it with liquid (water, Star San, beer if you're able) or suck on the "out" end to get the siphon started. An auto-siphon (what you posted) starts the siphon for you by just raising and lowering the tube once or twice.

My racking cane always works. It's the wider 1/2" type so racking is fast. You don't have to worry about stirring up the yeast cake if careful. Just offering a very simple solution.

dobe12 said:

It's called a AUTOSIPHON.

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Feel better now?

PS: It's the same thing and you know it.

dobe12 said:

It's called a racking cane.

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Nope, it's not. That's an auto siphon.

dobe12 said:

[...] PS: It's the same thing and you know it.

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It's not the same. Now if you pull the inside cane out of the auto siphon you got a racking cane, but with a funny bottom.

kombat said:

I think you're overthinking this. First of all, you should NEVER be applying pressure to a glass carboy. They are not at all designed to withstand pressure or a vacuum. Haven't you seen the "broken carboy" thread? Those things will break if you look at them funny. Applying 4 psi of pressure to one is just begging for a disaster.

Secondly, setting the carboy on a bucket is probably not enough height. You need the lowest point of the carboy to be above the highest point of the keg. If you do that, then even if you did use pressure (which, I repeat, you should NEVER do), then once the siphon started, it should continue just with gravity, and no additional pressure needed.

Thirdly, why not just use an auto siphon? It's what they're for. No more fighting with clogged tubes, or CO2 "burps" disturbing your bed of carefully cold-crashed yeast. Just gently move the carboy from the fridge to an elevated surface (I use my chest freezer fermentation chamber), then rack from it to the keg using an autosiphon. As soon as you're done, seal the keg, hook up the CO2 and purge the oxygen by pulling the PRV 4-5 times. No muss, no fuss, just clear, fresh beer.

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I use a better bottle not glass. And I generally don't use more than 1.5 psi. It flowed just fine once I put the line in the keg,so I don't think the height is a problem. I like this method because it is closed system and doesn't introduce oxygen, and I don't have to stand there holding the auto siphon.

Here's what I'm doing
http://www.love2brew.com/Articles.asp?ID=675

kombat said:

PRV = Pressure Relief Valve

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No PRV on my pin lock kegs.

If you're pushing it with co2 gravity shouldn't even be a concern...

A few things.

As mentioned, an autosiphon and a racking cane are not the same thing. An autosiphon starts the siphon itself, without having to suck on the tube or fill it with water or anything. A racking cane is just a hook-shaped piece of clear acrylic tubing. I know the difference, I have both. I do my racking with an autosiphon, and I use the racking cane when cleaning my carboys (it makes it much faster to drain a filled-to-the-brim carboy - just stick the racking cane in with the tip all the way to the bottom of the carboy while dumping out the water, to let air in. Then instead of the "gurgling" while draining, the water gushes out since the air can flow in through the cane).

I'm glad you're using BetterBottles, and not glass. I wanted to be clear for anyone else reading this, in case they got the idea that it's OK to use pressure with glass carboys. It's definitely not.

I wouldn't worry about introducing oxygen if you're simply gently racking from a carboy to a keg with no splashing. What do you think happens when people bottle-carbonate their beers? They rack to a bucket containing their priming sugar, totally exposed to oxygen. Yet somehow, they're able to produce un-oxidized, award-winning beer just the same. If you're really worried about it, hook the gas up to your keg and give it a couple spurts of CO2 before starting the siphon. CO2, being heavier than air, should sit inside the keg while it fills with beer, protecting it from oxidation.

Finally, as mentioned, if you've got the carboy above the keg, then you shouldn't need to keep applying CO2 pressure. You should only need to apply it to get the siphon started, then gravity should do the rest, provided you've created a vent in the destination keg to allow air inside of it to vent out as the keg fills with beer. I've done this a couple of times to rack from one keg to another. I have a "jumper" line of beverage tubing with a liquid QD on both ends. Put the keg of beer on the freezer, put the destination keg on the floor, attach the line to liquid out posts of both kegs, hook source keg up to CO2 and apply a little pressure. Open PRV (or lid, in the case of pin lock kegs) to allow air to vent out of destination keg. Once siphon is going, open PRV on source keg, too. Siphon will continue just on gravity power alone.

IslandLizard said:

Nope, it's not. That's an auto siphon.



It's not the same. Now if you pull the inside cane out of the auto siphon you got a racking cane, but with a funny bottom.

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So there is a racking cane in that picture no? Just inside the autosiphon. Of course I'm just being a pain in the a$$ now.

Jeez, this is why I get away from this forum from time to time. Guys like you who look right past the advice and feel the need to correct/hammer people for the slightest mistake that has no bearing on the question at hand. Racking cane, autosiphon, whatever... I was offering some advice to the OP. You are just trolling. Kombat pulls the same crap all over this forum, but at least he offers advice as well.... even if it is wrapped around arguments completely unrelated to the OPs post. (Like the GMO argument from yesterday)

dobe12 said:

Kombat pulls the same crap all over this forum

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Hey now, I prefaced it with a cheeky "Well, actually..." and a smiley - we're all friends here!

dobe12 said:

but at least he offers advice as well.... even if it is wrapped around arguments completely unrelated to the OPs post. (Like the GMO argument from yesterday)

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I'm easily distracted and can't resist correcting incorrect statements, particularly on a forum like this where newbies are trying to learn stuff. I wouldn't want some newbie walking into his LHBS, asking for a "racking cane," then getting confused when the clerk brings him one. "Where's the other part?" "What other part?" "The part this thing goes inside that you pump."

You could always move to a better bottle racking assembly. I have one in my 15 gallon fermentation barrel and it works great. It's a bit pricey but I think it's been worth it. It all comes apart for easy cleaning. Just a thought.

Check out the sanke fermenter build link in my sig. I thought racking was a PITA too. But I also thought carboys (of any material) were a PITA as well.

I transfer more beer (less waste) and cleaner beer with my little method. And it's cheap and easy to do. Plus no need to worry about oxygen.

There's an easier way. I use the same setup as Maltose, but don't worry about racking into the liquid post and all that- it complicates things. ALl you need is regular hose, hook it up to your racking cane (that's still running through the orange carboy cap). Start the siphon with pressure, disconnect the pressure once it starts siphoning, and just leave your hose coiled in the keg. Pretty much the same process, but doesn't complicate things with a ball lock connector and using the liquid tube. As long as you're not dry hopping in the carboy with whole hops, I've never gotten anything stuck.

Most people have problems with siphoning when there isn't enough drop.

You need at least 1 foot drop between the bottom of your origin vessel and the top of your destination vessel. That means that for your standard corny keg, the kitchen countertop is just barely enough. The dining room table won't really cut the mustard.

kombat said:

A few things.
I use the racking cane when cleaning my carboys (it makes it much faster to drain a filled-to-the-brim carboy - just stick the racking cane in with the tip all the way to the bottom of the carboy while dumping out the water, to let air in. Then instead of the "gurgling" while draining, the water gushes out since the air can flow in through the cane).

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That's a really good idea I never thought of that!

I'm not too worried about oxidation but I want to pressure transfer or some other method besides siphoning. It's really slick when it works. I only had it on a bucket because it wasn't flowing, I usually just leave it on the floor when I transfer. The point of my post was to see if anyone had similar problems or better ideas and mainly just to whine.

dobe12 said:

So there is a racking cane in that picture no? Just inside the autosiphon. Of course I'm just being a pain in the a$$ now.

Jeez, this is why I get away from this forum from time to time. Guys like you who look right past the advice and feel the need to correct/hammer people for the slightest mistake that has no bearing on the question at hand. Racking cane, autosiphon, whatever... I was offering some advice to the OP. You are just trolling. Kombat pulls the same crap all over this forum, but at least he offers advice as well.... even if it is wrapped around arguments completely unrelated to the OPs post. (Like the GMO argument from yesterday)

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I thought it was kind of funny

Dolomieu said:

You could always move to a better bottle racking assembly. I have one in my 15 gallon fermentation barrel and it works great. It's a bit pricey but I think it's been worth it. It all comes apart for easy cleaning. Just a thought.

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insanim8er said:

Check out the sanke fermenter build link in my sig. I thought racking was a PITA too. But I also thought carboys (of any material) were a PITA as well.

I transfer more beer (less waste) and cleaner beer with my little method. And it's cheap and easy to do. Plus no need to worry about oxygen.

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Dolomieu/insanim8er - I will check these out!

dobe12 said:

So there is a racking cane in that picture no? Just inside the autosiphon. Of course I'm just being a pain in the a$$ now.

Jeez, this is why I get away from this forum from time to time. Guys like you who look right past the advice and feel the need to correct/hammer people for the slightest mistake that has no bearing on the question at hand. Racking cane, autosiphon, whatever... I was offering some advice to the OP. You are just trolling. Kombat pulls the same crap all over this forum, but at least he offers advice as well.... even if it is wrapped around arguments completely unrelated to the OPs post. (Like the GMO argument from yesterday)

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We're just kicking your cane, man, by being over the top literal. It's like posting a picture of a zucchini and referring to it as if it were a pumpkin. It was actually kind of funny what you did. I like it!

I quit racking months ago. Starting fermenting in my bottling buckets. Spigot is far enough above the yeast cake so sediment stays in the bucket.

cgrivois said:

I quit racking months ago. Starting fermenting in my bottling buckets. Spigot is far enough above the yeast cake so sediment stays in the bucket.

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Yep - went to bottling buckets about 5 years ago - Bucket on the counter, put on a tube, open the spigot, gravity does the work. I did buy some stainless steal fermenting buckets over the past few months, conical bottom, spigot.... they are even better.

** If you, or anyone else, goes the route of bottling buckets as fermenters - you really do need to pay extra attention to cleaning and sanitation. You have to get those spigots apart. You have to have a system for assembling in a sanitary way, keeping spigot clean during fermentation, etc. It is not a big deal - but there is some extra attention to detail that you need to do.

Braufessor said:

Yep - went to bottling buckets about 5 years ago - Bucket on the counter, put on a tube, open the spigot, gravity does the work. I did buy some stainless steal fermenting buckets over the past few months, conical bottom, spigot.... they are even better.

** If you, or anyone else, goes the route of bottling buckets as fermenters - you really do need to pay extra attention to cleaning and sanitation. You have to get those spigots apart. You have to have a system for assembling in a sanitary way, keeping spigot clean during fermentation, etc. It is not a big deal - but there is some extra attention to detail that you need to do.

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Interesting. How do you sanitize your spigot before racking?

kombat said:

Hey now, I prefaced it with a cheeky "Well, actually..." and a smiley - we're all friends here!



I'm easily distracted and can't resist correcting incorrect statements, particularly on a forum like this where newbies are trying to learn stuff. I wouldn't want some newbie walking into his LHBS, asking for a "racking cane," then getting confused when the clerk brings him one. "Where's the other part?" "What other part?" "The part this thing goes inside that you pump."

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In Dobe's defense, I will say if I were a LHBS employee and someone asked me for a "racking cane", I would also be smart enough to ask that customer if he wants the racking can or the whole assembly, being an auto-siphon as the two terms kinda get mixed up (I've called it a "racking cane" as well from time to time). Anything short of that, and it's more the employee just being a dumb ass more so than the customer just being uninformed.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/auto-siphon-1-2.html

It's like saying "I need a tissue" and "I need a kleenex".

dobe12 said:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/auto-siphon-1-2.html

It's like saying "I need a tissue" and "I need a kleenex".

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Or better, type in racking cane in NB's search box and see what you get.

If I type in "hydrometer," the search results include a refractometer. Is a refractometer a hydrometer? All it proves is Northern Brewer is showing items related to your search terms, but not necessarily an exact match.

doublehaul said:

Interesting. How do you sanitize your spigot before racking?

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I know this wasn't for me but:

With the better bottle rack setup it all comes apart real easy. Clean the hell out of it. He's right you have to be careful which is why i prefer this setup over the bottling buck type spigot. After I re-install it in my fermenter I turn the spigot upside down fill the end with star san water and cap with a bit of saran wrap and a small rubber band. Stays that way until racking day, when i spray it down in and out connect a tube the open it up.

kombat said:

If I type in "hydrometer," the search results include a refractometer. Is a refractometer a hydrometer? All it proves is Northern Brewer is showing items related to your search terms, but not necessarily an exact match.

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No, but it's still relative. Both are used to calculate gravity. Pretty much the same thing I was saying in my reply about the LHBS employee about the racking cane comment.

I'm sure Northern will be receiving an email from you soon on the differences. We can't be distracted by such shenanigans you know.


Sorry for the off topic OP. Just a little ribbing that's all.

Braufessor said:

** If you, or anyone else, goes the route of bottling buckets as fermenters - you really do need to pay extra attention to cleaning and sanitation. You have to get those spigots apart. You have to have a system for assembling in a sanitary way, keeping spigot clean during fermentation, etc. It is not a big deal - but there is some extra attention to detail that you need to do.

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All I do is take the spigot apart and throw the pieces in my rinse bucket. Pull the pieces out of my rinse bucket when the big bucket is clean and just reassemble the spigot.

I regularly take samples from my spigot during fermentation. It sucks some water back through the airlock, I take it out and go to the shower to refill it.

No extra attention to detail and I've never had any problem in many, many, many batches. The risks of infection are not on the same level as a surgical operating room.