First time kegging, help?

I have bottled quite a few batches, but I just ran out and got a keg system specifically for a party that I was invited to on somewhat short notice. I was hoping that force carbonating would cut down on time from brew to the glass, and have been reading up as much as I can on the topic. It seems there are 5 different answers for every question I have. :cross:

I'm brewing a spiced ale for a holiday party. Its lightly spiced with only allspice, and was supposed to start out somewhat low OG although I overshot it due to bad recipe conversion, all in an effort to get it finished faster. The fermentation has slowed to about 4 bubbles per minute, and is moving along nicely.

My plan is to cold crash the primary fermenter, rack to the keg, fine in the keg with gelatin, force carb, draw off sediment, and then drive an hour to the party.

I guess I'm wondering what kind of time frame I should be doing. I will drive to the party on the 21st and arrive maybe 3 hours early to allow the keg to settle. I plan on putting the keg in an ice bath to keep it cool if this is important.

What order would you perform the steps in? Fine and carb at the same time? How long before the party do I need to rack to the keg? Can I do the 'quick' method without worrying about over carbing by refering to that chart and shaking the keg at the proper pressure? Without cutting my dip tube short, or using a jumper to move from one keg to another, what would be the best way to get the keg to the party and keep it clear? (I used irish moss in the boil, and have knox gelatin on hand also).

I'll leave it with these questions basically about timeframe, and post more if I think about it. Thanks in advance for all your help!

Depends on how much sediment you have. We filter the beer (pre carbonation) and have not had great success with finings. If you cannot filter:
1. Rack and carbonate and let settle at least a day. You can force it in a hurry (less than an hour) but slower is better. Make sure the keg is COLD!
2. Without moving the Keg, burp it to get rid of any sediment.
3. If you have a couple of days, shake a little and then repeat step 2 the next day.
4. When moving, try to keep the keg upright and not shaken. We wedge them with the car seat so they "stand". We are just careful how we move them. This is probably the most important if drinking on same day as transport. When we do this, we can normally drink without much debris. We do try to arrive early and set the keg and not move it again.

Step 4 is important even with a filtered beer. Try to be as steady as possible.

Quick force carb

1. Rack the beer
2. Pressurize to 30 psi
3. Cold crash to 30 degrees.
4. Pressurize to 30 psi
5. Disconnect CO2
6. Roll can for 3 minutes (you can sit in a car and rock it back and forth)
7. Pressurize to 30 psi
8. Disconnect CO2
9. Roll can for 3 minutes (you can sit in a car and rock it back and forth)
10. Pressurize to 30 psi
11. Disconnect CO2
12. Roll can for 3 minutes (you can sit in a car and rock it back and forth)
13. Relieve preesure in keg to 5 psi.
14. Sample

The beer may be cloudy and not taste perfect, but you are checking for carbonation.

Repeat as necessary.

You will have to let the beer settle before you can drink it as it will have some solids (unless you ultra filtered it).

How long has the beer been in primary? I have been in a time pinch also before, I try to primary for 10-14 days and keg at least 48hrs prior to serving so the beer will carbonate easier and have time to have everything settle. I've never used fining agents so I can not comment on that. Hope this helps.

Oakbarn:

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This is all useful advice, thanks for that. It looks like I am going to have to take a general consensus on the timeframe and work backwards from the day of the party. I would love to fully carb in 24 hours but I am afraid of carbonic acid. I would hate to ruin my beer for a party of 30 by carbing wrong. I'll have to read up more about carbonic acid.

Transamguy77 said:

How long has the beer been in primary? I have been in a time pinch also before, I try to primary for 10-14 days and keg at least 48hrs prior to serving so the beer will carbonate easier and have time to have everything settle. I've never used fining agents so I can not comment on that. Hope this helps.

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I was invited to the party Dec. 1st, so that means I had it brewed and in the fermenter around 11pm on the 2nd. It's about 11pm on the 8th, so its been in the primary 6 days. The party is afternoon on the 21st. I do have a spare fridge, and also a garage that I can cold crash in. I'll probably do the fridge because its colder and more constant. I would like to cold crash at least 2 days near 32F. I'm just a bit lost about what time frame to use as soon as I keg if I'm trying to keep a balance between rushing the brew, and quality and clarity.

I did a quick write up over in the Beginners Forum Here if you want more details regarding the recipe, brew process, ferment temps, etc...

The airlock is still bubbling once every 15-20 seconds on day 6, but I started kind of high on the OG (1.060 when I was aiming for 1.048 I think), so this might be expected. I did get a faint aroma of candy bananas so I'd like to leave it longer in primary than 3 days after airlock activity stops. Once I recognised the smell I dropped the ferment temp from 67-68 to around 64-65. It smells a lot drier, and no artificial banana smell anymore.

If I want to leave myself a week in the keg, I need to rack this off of primary on the 14th which is this Saturday, or 5 more days. If I can cut my keg time down a bit, I can go longer in primary and cold crashing.

Since it's my first time kegging and I decided to brew for a group I want to be sure I get this right the first time! haha

Thanks for the replies so far, I still have a bit more time before it's crunch time

Transamguy77 said:

How long has the beer been in primary? I have been in a time pinch also before, I try to primary for 10-14 days and keg at least 48hrs prior to serving so the beer will carbonate easier and have time to have everything settle. I've never used fining agents so I can not comment on that. Hope this helps.

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That's the other thing, you're saying 48 hours to settle and I have seen similar numbers in my research. The problem is I will be driving the keg an hour to the party, no doubt the drive will stir everything up. I am planning on pulling pints off before I hit the road, but that likely wont get everything.

I did use Irish Moss in the boil, I siphoned the wort off of the trub in the boil kettle (and dumped maybe a half gallon). And I plan on leaving some flat beer in the primary as well and not chasing every last drop. I am hoping this in addition to fining with gelatin in the keg will yeild me a clear and presentable beer without the typical homebrew warning "beware sediment". I don't want the poured beer to taste 'yeasty' or green due to stirred up sediment.

I'm no expert.

After 5 batches kegging (I told you I was no expert)...

I use irish moss, I do a fast cold break (really cold tap water), I rack after about 7 days to secondary. I wait until I hit as close as I can to FG (between 2-3 weeks total). I cold chill near freezing for a day or two in the secondary. I rack into a Corny and cold carb at 20 psi for 20 hrs, then purge, and recarb at 12-13 psi. I can put the beer on tap after that and try to serve around mid 40's temp. At best- about 17 days.

Most pales and ambers are still cloudy. I don't use finings or gelatin post boil (although I may try it) and I don't filter (although I may try it).

Most beers I can taste the cider/green apple yeast flavor in the background. Beers I have bottled come out clear after about 2-3 weeks in the bottle with a little sediment on the bottom of the bottle.

On a good note- people still rave about the beer. But I definitely think it could use some more conditioning or filtering to the keg.

My milk stout @ 6.1 ABV using London Ale Yeast came out clear and not a hint of yeast. It sat in the secondary about 2 weeks before crash cooling and kegging.

I don't know how to get the cloudiness out without filtering/clarifying besides time.

Polyclar before kegging?

Thanks for your process jcmcdowell, from a bit further research it sounds like 1 week is more than enough time if I do the 'quick' method.

I have a question that cropped up: If I referred to that chart that relates volumes, temperature and pressure, and set the PSI to the exact volumes I was looking for (ala long method), and then chose to roll the keg (ala quick method) at this psi, could I avoid overcarbing?

I would check the gravity on your beer. Judging only by airlock bubbles isn't very accurate.

I guess if you are kegging and drinking right away, you won't have a "bottle bomb" type problem, but the beer may not be done fermenting yet.

WalleyeGuy said:

I would check the gravity on your beer. Judging only by airlock bubbles isn't very accurate.

I guess if you are kegging and drinking right away, you won't have a "bottle bomb" type problem, but the beer may not be done fermenting yet.

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I haven't even bothered to take an FG reading yet due to the airlock activity. Even though it had slowed it was still producing bubbles at a regular rate. Tonight I bumped the temp in that room up by about 2 degrees to help the yeast finish since the airlock activity had slowed by so much. I plan to take my first FG reading 2-3 days after I get too bored to sit, watch, and wait for another bubble to come .

Either way I am comfortable enough with fermentation procedure, but really need kegging advice within the next several days. I must have derailed my own thread with too much fermentation info (in the kegging/bottling section none the less, haha). I was originally planning 2 weeks primary and 1 week keg, though it sounds like I can go a few days longer in primary if the beer tells me that's what it wants. Another change I think I will make to my plan is to cold crash and gelatin fine in primary, and rack the clear liquid to the chilled keg to force carb. I will keep my plan to swish the keg to whirlpool, and draw off sediment every 6 hours for 1-2 days before the drive to the party. Hopefully between the Irish Moss, cold crashing the primary, and whirlpooling the keg to gather sediment I will get most of it.

I'd still like to know if setting my PSI to the "long method force carb" setting according to that chart, and then shaking the keg at the 'proper long method' pressure will both save me from over-carbing while hastening the carb process? Any ideas anyone?

Oaney said:

[...]I'd still like to know if setting my PSI to the "long method force carb" setting according to that chart, and then shaking the keg at the 'proper long method' pressure will both save me from over-carbing while hastening the carb process? Any ideas anyone?

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You don't need to actually shake the beejesus out of the beer, but yes, if you set the CO2 pressure per any temperature vs pressure = carbonation chart or calculator for your desired volumes of CO2, then keep the beer moving while on that pressure until you don't hear any more gas flowing in, the end result will not be over-carbed beer. You can lay the keg on its side on top of a piece of 2x4 or a baseball bat with a bath towel folded over it and just gently rock the keg like a teeter-totter.

Definitely recommend having an anti-backflow valve (aka "check valve") on the gas line to avoid accidentally flooding your regulator, and don't lower or turn off the gas feed while the keg is other than straight upright...

Cheers!

I jumped into kegging a little over a year now. I have done 7 types of beer so far since. I filter my beer down to .5 microns because I like it clear. They have been all light beers so far. I fill the keg up with really cold water and dump it to get the keg cold. I starsan the keg and filter beer to keg and put in kezzer at 39F for 2-4 hours.
I hook co2 up at 30 psi for 36 hours, then purge and drop it down to 12 psi for 12 hours. So my beer is fully carbed in 48 hours without over carbing it, no rolling at all.

I don't know where your in the process? If you can cold crash, then rack to a keg, (if you can, cold crash again in the keg and jump to another keg) anyway most of the yeast have dropped in the crash (next time use WL007 yeast). Burst carb the keg to 30psi, with the gas hooked up, with the keg on it's side, roll it back and fourth with your foot, till you stop hearing the gas feed into the keg. Keep the gas set to 30psi for 24hrs, then drop to 13-15psi for the rest of the week till your party. What I have said is not the best way, but in a time crunch, I am "breaking a few eggs".

day_trippr said:

... keep the beer moving while on that pressure until you don't hear any more gas flowing in, the end result will not be over-carbed beer... Definitely recommend having an anti-backflow valve (aka "check valve") on the gas line to avoid accidentally flooding your regulator...

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Two questions come to mind, a simple question and a more involved one. First will any check valve work assuming it fits my gas line, and will withstand a bit of pressure (like an aquarium air pump anti-siphon valve) or do I need a specialized brewing check valve?

Second, I bought one of those Carbonator Caps from the LHBS when I bought the keg system, planning to make my own seltzer water. I had a thought; Could I carbonate straight up water at various volumes per temperature to get some idea of what force carbing beer to a specific volume will be like? Or is water somehow different to flat beer regarding volumes absorbed/released, CO2 absorption efficiency, some other factor, etc... so will the carbonated water be a poor analog to beer if I want to get a general idea about the volumes chart? (The only thing that comes to mind is that head retention will be severely reduced in straight up water)

mikescooling said:

I don't know where your in the process? If you can cold crash, then rack to a keg, (if you can, cold crash again in the keg and jump to another keg) anyway most of the yeast have dropped in the crash (next time use WL007 yeast). Burst carb the keg to 30psi, with the gas hooked up, with the keg on it's side, roll it back and fourth with your foot, till you stop hearing the gas feed into the keg. Keep the gas set to 30psi for 24hrs, then drop to 13-15psi for the rest of the week till your party. What I have said is not the best way, but in a time crunch, I am "breaking a few eggs".

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I am still fermenting in the primary, should be day 7 now. I am asking this kegging advice a week or two ahead of time so that I'm not freaking out on the day of. I was hoping to avoid the 30psi 'chance it' method of carbing though it sounds like it works for a number of you guys. Even still I will probably rock the keg at whatever PSI the chart tells me to avoid over carb.

When you say "cold crash again in the keg" are you suggesting I crash the primary, rack to keg, let the keg warm up, and cold crash the keg again? Or should I rack a cold crashed primary into a keg and maintain cold-crash temps?

Presently I don't have a second keg to transfer to... and the yeast LHBS sold me was high flocculation. I started with an all grain recipe that LHBS converted for me. In hindsight he sold me much too much LME which resulted in far too high OG. He also sold me a vial of WLP005 British Ale Yeast. Original recipe can be found in a link a few posts above.

If you have 2 weeks, just set the keg on gas at 12-13psi and keep it cold, that's the best way to do it, hands down (no burst carbing). From the point where you want the yeast to drop, keep the beer cold from there on. Yeast may keep dropping in the keg, with out moving the keg, blow one beer off, that should suck out the dropped yeast from around the dip tube. Having a high flocking yeast rocks, that was a good move.

day_trippr said:

You don't need to actually shake the beejesus out of the beer, but yes, if you set the CO2 pressure per any temperature vs pressure = carbonation chart or calculator for your desired volumes of CO2, then keep the beer moving while on that pressure until you don't hear any more gas flowing in, the end result will not be over-carbed beer. You can lay the keg on its side on top of a piece of 2x4 or a baseball bat with a bath towel folded over it and just gently rock the keg like a teeter-totter.

Definitely recommend having an anti-backflow valve (aka "check valve") on the gas line to avoid accidentally flooding your regulator, and don't lower or turn off the gas feed while the keg is other than straight upright...

Cheers!

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This is the reason we disconnect the CO2. You will get beer in your gas line if you do not. Does not happen 100% of the time, but once is too many times. The check valve will prevent it from getting into the regulator, but not the line.

CRZ said:

I jumped into kegging a little over a year now. I have done 7 types of beer so far since. I filter my beer down to .5 microns because I like it clear. They have been all light beers so far. I fill the keg up with really cold water and dump it to get the keg cold. I starsan the keg and filter beer to keg and put in kezzer at 39F for 2-4 hours. I hook co2 up at 30 psi for 36 hours, then purge and drop it down to 12 psi for 12 hours. So my beer is fully carbed in 48 hours without over carbing it, no rolling at all.

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I wrote this on 12/09/13 at 11pm, 1 hour after I hooked my Canadian Light up to co2 @ 30 psi. On 12/11/13 at 10am, 36 hours later I took it off Co2 and purged then hooked it back up to co2 @ 12 psi for another 12 hours. 12/11/13 at 10pm, 48 hours after first hooking up to co2, my first glass was poured.



It's carbed perfectly. I did my research when I got into kegging. The first one I kegged was at 12 psi for 2 weeks to get it carbed. Now I do the 30 psi for 36 hours, carbs it he same just in faster time.
I'm not a fan of shake carbing, because you can easily over carb, or the co2 can fall out faster in your glass. I say use the easiest, and most convenient way. If you're worried, go 30 psi for only 30 hours then at 12 psi until fully carbed, it might take 3 days instead of 2.

CRZ said:

I jumped into kegging a little over a year now. I have done 7 types of beer so far since. I filter my beer down to .5 microns because I like it clear. They have been all light beers so far. I fill the keg up with really cold water and dump it to get the keg cold. I starsan the keg and filter beer to keg and put in kezzer at 39F for 2-4 hours.
I hook co2 up at 30 psi for 36 hours, then purge and drop it down to 12 psi for 12 hours. So my beer is fully carbed in 48 hours without over carbing it, no rolling at all.

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This what we normally do as well. Shaking the keg is a pain and we only do it if we have a 911 call that we are out of beer!

Thanks everyone, OG reading is the same and the primary went into the fridge to cold crash. I am eager to use some gelatin tonight at 24 hours but I will force myself to wait until tomorrow morning and go 36 to make sure its cold. I am hoping another 36 hours fining time will work and the brew should be going into the keg on Monday night. The party is Saturday so I'll have 5 days in the keg.

I think I will go the 30psi for 36 hours route, draw a small sample to remove any sediment and taste the carbonation and continue at serving pressure the rest of the time. I will probably keep pulling samples daily for both sediment and to test carb levels. If I can rush it in 2-3 days this way, I would like the 5 days total carb time as a sort of buffer in case anything happens. Maybe I should only go 30psi for 30 or 24 hours since I have more time? Eh, I'll wing it and rely on a mixture of yall's advice and intuition.

On a side note I bottled a 6 pack with natural carbonation while taking the final OG reading. I will probably end up with more like 4 gallons in the keg. I tasted the sample for the first time and even though it was warm and flat it tasted pretty good for such a young spiced ale. The spice was there but not up front. It was very malty, slightly bitter, and very dry. No off flavors at all. In my opinion there was just that slight something missing that I tend to find when using extract (compared to a friends all grain). The two other people that I shared my sample with were really impressed though. I'm really looking forward to tasting it cold and carbed up!

oakbarn said:

This what we normally do as well. Shaking the keg is a pain and we only do it if we have a 911 call that we are out of beer!

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Yeah I totally agree in that case.


What is the temperature of the fridge that you plan to add the co2 at?
I'd go 30 psi for 30 hours just because it's your first time, and you have extra time to do so.

I went to check the thermometer that was in there already (a coil type) and it was reading 26F... 0_o. I threw another glass/alcohol type sitting on the primary bucket lid a few hours ago, its reading 42-44F (much higher than I was expecting). I just moved it to the shelf above the fermenter to see if maybe the fermenter is still a bit warm?

I can only crank the controls in the spare fridge up a bit more until I max it, but it's used for food and other things also so I'd rather not play with it much if I don't need to.

I plan to either swirl cold water in the keg, or stick it in the fridge for a few hours before I rack it over anyways. Will it help to chill the gas too or should that stay warm, does it matter?

Cold or warm co2 tank doesn't matter. It's just what is easier for you co2 in fridge in or out. If the tank is in the fridge your co2 gauge will show low co2, but it's not the case. Psi gauge will work the same.
My keezer is set to 39F ambient temperature. So the 30 for 36 works great for me. Temperature is the controlling factor on how your beer will carb, and that carb chart is a great way to adjust.

Not rocket science. Get it cold and Burb it if you did not filter. Add CO2. If there is not room in the fridge, CO2 from outside, disconnect, close fridge. Repeat every once in a while.

Kegging went very smoothly today around 3pm, ended up with about 4 or 4.5 gallons of crystal clear amber ale. Set the regulator to 30psi and stuck both the keg and the tank in the fridge. Tomorrow at 9pm will be 30 hours, I will purge the keg, set the regulator to 12 and repressurize, then draw off 4 ounces to pull any sediment (and sample).


Thanks for all the help everyone! I will probably pull a few glasses on thursday or friday to share around and get opinions right before the party. Maybe I will take a picture then and see if I can figure out how to post it.

Thanks for all the help everyone, you have helped me achieve a beer that is servable in 3 weeks! I went 30 psi for 33 hours, and down to 12 psi serving pressure. It's been 25 hours at 12 psi so I figured I would test carbonation and poured myself a glass tonight. I have updated my original thread with pictures here if you would like to check out the final product. Or follow this link:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/first-brew-1-5-years-holiday-spice-ale-446063/#post5755102

Thanks again!
-Oaney

Oaney said:

Thanks for all the help everyone, you have helped me achieve a beer that is servable in 3 weeks! I went 30 psi for 33 hours, and down to 12 psi serving pressure. It's been 25 hours at 12 psi so I figured I would test carbonation and poured myself a glass tonight. I have updated my original thread with pictures here if you would like to check out the final product. Or follow this link:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/first-brew-1-5-years-holiday-spice-ale-446063/#post5755102

Thanks again!
-Oaney

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Hey, where's the party? I sure all of us could come!