Sweet, Naturally-Carbonated Cider?

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firewa11

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I'm just curious if anyone has any recipes for a naturally carbonated cider that comes out sweet? As I understand the mechanics of fermentation, I don't see how this would be possible so I figured I'd ask here! I brewed some cider earlier this year that came out great. Very simple, picked up 6 gallons of apple cider from the grocery store, threw in a bag of brown sugar, I forget the yeast... when fermentation was done I mixed in some priming sugar before bottling.

So... if I were use a low alc tolerant yeast, it wouldn't carbonate, because once it gets to that level, it dies off. If I used a higher alc tolerant yeast, and added sugar to sweeten, the yeast would get going again, and produce bottle bombs. And if I use sulfites to end fermentation, I wouldn't be able to carbonate naturally.

Does that about sum it up? The only way to carbonate a sweet cider is do it non-naturally, using a CO2 injector system (like kegging or a bottling system that injects CO2)? Or am I missing something here?
 
I was under the impression you could 'prime' bottles of hard cider, then when it reached the desired carbonation (in about 2 weeks) to pasteurize the bottles, so they do not over carbonate and explode.
 
How would you do that, put the bottles in a water bath for 20-30 mins around 170 degrees? I'd be concerned that heating the bottles like that would excite the CO2 and make it explode (like leaving a can of soda in a hot car)...
 
Thanks everyone, I think I'll try the pasteurizing for my next batch... it seems the most simple of methods. I'll probably go pick up the stuff later this week and get another 6 gallons brewing! I've always waited until secondary fermentation was halted before bottling, so I'll give this a shot. Thanks!
 
I've picked up 6 gallons of cider and 3 bricks of brown sugar. I just need to get by the LHBS and pick up some cider yeast, so hopefully tomorrow I'll get this brewing. I'm going to try and get the SG around 1.040, hopefully it won't turn out looking like a Hefeweizen!
 
Splenda is something I've used, it was wonderful. You can go pretty light with it, it only takes a little bit of sweetness to fundamentally augment cider from desert dry to cloyingly sweet. I didn't take notes when I used it, but my memory tells me I used a half teaspoon per 12 oz bottle.
 
OT, but this reminds me of a question I had about a year ago.. why hasn't someone invented an Alka-Seltzer type of capsule that you can drop in a beer bottle with liquid/beer/cider/etc and immediately cap, and has a chemical reaction creating an inert gas of some sort that pressurizes the bottle?
 
It's not really all that hard to do this.....

1st -- use straight Apple juice concentrate to add extra sugar content instead of brown sugar... unless you want apple cider with a molasses-y taste..... The extra concentrate really magnifies the apple flavor....

2nd -- Use your hydrometer and your taster to decide how sweet you want it -- 1.04 is pretty darn sweet..... *Way* too sweet for me.... I prefer 1.02 range...

After this, it's actually pretty easy. Read through the stove top pasteurizing thread....

My own method is to rack, cold crash for a few days when you are at your target sweetness.... Then carefully rack again - straight into bottles.... Be careful not to pick up too much yeast cake off the bottom of the container...

Don't aerate/degas at all, and be careful about shaking and splashing it -- and it will be plenty carbonated when it goes into the bottles......

Then immediately cap and stove top pasteurize.

Let them sit a week or 2 in the fridge and drink....

You will get a bit of residual yeast/sediment in the bottom of the bottle.. but not much..... Just be careful with your pour -- it eventually compacts really nicely after a few months....

It won't be as heavily carbonated as Coke -- but it will have a good sparkly carbonation to it.....

Thanks
 
If you are going to pasteurize, I recommend not using a wine yeast. My single attempt at that method did not result in bombs (but probably would have if given enough time) but did result in champagne fountains when I opened each bottle (flip-tops) leaving me with about a half bottle of actual drink and alot of foam. The stove-top past. method should be regarded with a YMMV* disclaimer.
 
Sounds like you primed it, bottled, let it continue to ferment/carbonate for some amount of time, then stove top pasteurized.....

There may be a good chance it would have done the same thing with or without pasteurizing.....

My Dad has some famous family stories of beer bottles exploding in the closet because of too much priming sugar....... I know he certainly didn't pasteurize them....

If you look at what I did... there is no additional priming/sugar for extra carbonation..... I rely on the residual carbonation in the fermented must before bottling to make a sparkling beverage... Literally, I was capping bottles and putting them straight into the pasteurizing pot.....

Thanks
 
Hmm, sounds like I should get a couple 1-gallon carboys and try to perfect this before I load up a full 6 gallons. I think I'll try a variety of methods you've all suggested here. I didn't think about brown sugar giving an off taste but that makes perfect sense, so I think I'll just pick up some frozen cans and give that a try. I like Splenda in my coffee, and it might work okay in cider, but I'd rather go with natural if I can. I tried to bake a cake with Splenda once, and there are still nights I wake up screaming...

As far as the yeast, I had great results with the last batch of cider using Lalvin D-47 (same as I used for my sweet mead), but for this upcoming batch I was actually hoping to find Nottingham Ale yeast or Coopers's, but I'll have to see what the local shop has.
 
Well, here's my batch attempt. I'm going to be bottling in the next few days, so could you guys take a look at this and see if this sounds about right?

6 gallons grocery store Apple Cider
1 package of light brown sugar
1 can of frozen concentrated apple juice
Nottingham Brewer's Yeast

Starting SG 1.062

Put everything in primary fermenter
Racked to secondary when SG reached 1.030

Current SG 1.022

I plan to rack to my bottling bucket at SG 1.018, then bottle immediately after. I've heard different opinions on whether or not to add priming sugar. Right now, it's already quite fizzy. Filling up my wine thief resulted in a 2" bit of fizzy foam already.

I've read through the boards quite a bit and everyone has differing ideas on various methods of processing, so I've decided pasteurizing is the way to go for me. I've never had a bottle bomb and I really don't want to start. So my questions are geared towards those. Knowing where I'm at right now with regards to recipe and SG of my brew...

Should I wait any length of time between bottling and pasteurizing?

If so, should I add priming sugar (2/3 Cup) before bottling?

I'm using 22 oz bottles, does that make any sort of difference?
 
I forgot to mention the reason I'm asking regarding adding priming sugars and such, is because my brew is still actively fermenting (1 bubble every 2-3 seconds)... My thoughts are if I bottle at a higher SG, the carbonation levels will be high without waiting very long.
 
There is no reason to add priming sugar to something around 1.018, that's already very high and needs no priming sugar. It isn't like beer that might "finish" at 1.018, cider and your sugar addition is 100% fermentable, it will go to 1.000 if you let it.

As far as "when" to pasteurize, it depends. You have to open one every day until you've got some carbonation (but not too much) and then immediately pasteurize, on the spot. That's what makes it inconvenient. As soon as the carb level is reached, you've got to stop what you are doing, cancel your plans, and start pasteurizing. Letting it go even one more day before pasteurizing can take the carb level enough to make bottle bombs when it's heated.
 
When I checked yesterday it had already dropped to 1.012, so I went ahead and added a little priming sugar and bottled. I'm thinking a couple days of carbonating and I'll be ready to pasteurize. I'll be wearing my full motorcycle gauntlets, leather jacket, and something over my face when I pasteurize... heh.
 
Ok, so I put one bottle in the fridge today, opened it, and decided it was just enough carbonation for my tastes... lightly carbonated. No rushing fountain of foam, I poured into a glass, just a slight head for a few seconds, nice bubbles, nothing near like a soda.

So I heated my pot of water up to 190 degrees, moved it off the burner onto a trivet on the counter. Put in 7 bottles, not touching each other or the side of the pan, then put the lid on and set my timer for 10 mins. About a minute or two later... KERBLAM! A wave of water and cider shot out of the pan all over the counter. KERBLAM! Another... and another... 5 of the seven bottles exploded. None of the exploded bottles had their caps topped, they literally exploded. After about 20 minutes I moved the pot to the sink, and wearing a lot of protection, moved the unbroken bottles to the counter to cool.

Then proceeded to clean a sticky mess.

I moved the remaining (un-pasteurized bottles) to the fridge, where I'm going to keep them until I pop them open to drink.

Thoughts...

I used a 20 qt pot, and I used 22 oz bottles. Looking at the pics from Pappers, it looks like you are using a smaller pot. My theory is that when you put your bottles in the water, it cools the water quicker, and takes it down to a safer temperature. Since I had a large volume of water, it remained at high temperatures longer, raising them to critical temperatures and pressures.

I'm not sure if 22oz bottles make a difference or not. My theory here is since there is nearly double the liquid of standard 12oz bottles, it contains more gas. Therefore when you raise the temperature of the liquid, it releases much more gas, and raises the pressures much higher.

If I ever attempt pasturization in the future, I will only use 12 oz bottles, and I will use a rack in my water vessel so I can raise the temperature to something like 150 degrees and maintain it there for a longer period of time, instead of 190 degrees.

I still have 21 bottles left, chilling in the fridge. The brew turned out perfect, aside from the mess and scare in the kitchen a few mins ago!
 
When I checked yesterday it had already dropped to 1.012, so I went ahead and added a little priming sugar and bottled. I'm thinking a couple days of carbonating and I'll be ready to pasteurize. I'll be wearing my full motorcycle gauntlets, leather jacket, and something over my face when I pasteurize... heh.

Sounds like you're making bombs. You DON'T want to add more sugar to this. Trust me. Just bottle, then pasteurize (or chill) when the carbonation is right.
 
Darn. I should have read to the bottom of the thread before I posted the last comment.

Sorry about your bombs.

Next time, either listen to what people tell you before hand (Fletch mentioned NOT to prime) or be prepared for bombs. It doesn''t have a thing to do with the size of the bottles, really.

Priming sugar + unfinished cider + heat = bombs.
 
As far as "when" to pasteurize, it depends. You have to open one every day until you've got some carbonation (but not too much) and then immediately pasteurize, on the spot. That's what makes it inconvenient. As soon as the carb level is reached, you've got to stop what you are doing, cancel your plans, and start pasteurizing. Letting it go even one more day before pasteurizing can take the carb level enough to make bottle bombs when it's heated.

This guy did what Fletch78 suggested and tried the carbonation level after only 2 days. It was light carbonation and then he pasteurized right away. In fact, from comparison with the pasteurization sticky, this failed experiment was far less carbonated than the sticky successful process!

I think the psuedo-formula we are interested in here are...

Pressure - Strength of Bottle = Bomb Potential

Adding priming sugar is irrelevant to pressure if the time between pasteurization and bottling results in the CO2 levels being the same or less than the successful sticky pasteurization experiment.

The questions we need to answer are twofold,

regarding the bottle strength:
Was the bottle weaker than the ones used in the successful sticky?

regarding the pressure in the bottle:
Was the failure carbed the same volume as the sticky experiment?
Was the temperature of the failed bottles really at 190 F, or was higher?
Did the bottles touch the bottom of the pot, which will be hotter than the H2O?
Was their adequate head-space in the bottle?

Also, why are we pasteurizing to 190 F anyway, when yeast dies around 140 f?
If we are pasteurizing to stop fermentation this 140 F is sufficient.
Most of the baddies you are trying to kill at 190F can not survive in alcohol and low ph levels. Plus, nobody ever pasteurizes beer in the bottle, do they!
 
Adding priming sugar is irrelevant to pressure if the time between pasteurization and bottling results in the CO2 levels being the same or less than the successful sticky pasteurization experiment.

I don't agree- more fermentables = more potential for bombs.
When you add more fermentables, you're basically increasing the yeast food and asking for bottle bombs.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue. Glad no one got hurt.
 
Just so yall know... I'm not a fan of bottle pasteurizing. Sure, heating bottles in a pot of water is easy, but the devil is in the details. My single attempt at pasteurizing bottles of cyser was unsuccessful. I think it's a bad idea. I think this thread also evidents that.
 
Sounds like you're making bombs. You DON'T want to add more sugar to this. Trust me. Just bottle, then pasteurize (or chill) when the carbonation is right.

Darn. I should have read to the bottom of the thread before I posted the last comment.

Sorry about your bombs.

Next time, either listen to what people tell you before hand (Fletch mentioned NOT to prime) or be prepared for bombs. It doesn''t have a thing to do with the size of the bottles, really.

Priming sugar + unfinished cider + heat = bombs.

I don't agree- more fermentables = more potential for bombs.
When you add more fermentables, you're basically increasing the yeast food and asking for bottle bombs.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue. Glad no one got hurt.


Doesn't this contradict the information in the sticky about pasteurization? In that thread, Pappers specifically says to wait until SG is about 1.010 to 1.015 and then to add priming sugar and bottle, then wait until carbonation is right, and then pasteurize. Are you saying that is wrong?
 
Pappers gave a specific SG because that is what he likes his cider's sweetness/dryness level to be at. Lower temp pasteurizing should work. 165 degrees for 10 min should suffice.
 
Doesn't this contradict the information in the sticky about pasteurization? In that thread, Pappers specifically says to wait until SG is about 1.010 to 1.015 and then to add priming sugar and bottle, then wait until carbonation is right, and then pasteurize. Are you saying that is wrong?

Well, it seems to work for some people. I've never tried to make a sweet naturally carbonated wine or cider, I just don't think it's a great idea to be honest. Of course, I have it easy- I can just keg soda and cider if I want. I also do NOT like anything sweet, so it's not an issue for me.

Pappers knows what he's doing, and he's very experienced with this. I just don't think I'd try it.
 
Hey guys. I am starting the pasteurization experiment tonight. Wish me and my safety glasses some luck!

I have a cider at 1.010. I am going to pasteurize 6 bottles tonight as 'still cider'. I am actually going for a tiny bit of carbonation due to what is already absorbed in the cider that is in the primary. I am going to be careful about splashing etc.

Each day I plan to open a bottle and test the appearance of carbonation. When it is light, I am guessing about 1-2 days, I will pasteurize in a lobster pot (with lid) who's water is at 170 F. I leave bottles in for 8 minutes and this will achieve a bottle liquid temp of 151 F. (i ran some tests earlier during the day with a capped bottle full of water)
I do have a cooking rack on the bottom of the pot so there is no touching of the bottom.

I ran a few experiments with some old home brew and their were no explosions :)
 
As far as "when" to pasteurize, it depends. You have to open one every day until you've got some carbonation (but not too much) and then immediately pasteurize, on the spot. That's what makes it inconvenient. As soon as the carb level is reached, you've got to stop what you are doing, cancel your plans, and start pasteurizing. Letting it go even one more day before pasteurizing can take the carb level enough to make bottle bombs when it's heated.

After you get the right amount of carbonation, couldn't you put the cider in the fridge until you feel like pasteurizing it?
 
Sorry that some people have made bombs, the point of the method I use is to keep from making bombs, to get a semi-dry, bottle conditioned sparkling cider without using chemicals.

I can't comment on other people's processes, really. The process documented in the pasteurizing thread works for me, without fail, and it has for others, too. As noted, it is straightforward and simple. But, there are variables that could cause it not to work. If you make a big cider, that could have an impact (as I say in the pasteurizing thread, I make a simple, draft-style cider). The size and types of bottles. The size of the pot. Crowding the pot. Not taking the pot off the heat. Letting the carbonation level get too high.

The reason I gave step-by-step instructions was to make it easier for people. Here are a couple of other posts, which I wrote before the pasteurizing thread, from the Cider House Rules thread by MeadWitch, about the process I use which might help folks:

Here's a recipe version:

1. add 5 gallons of apple cider to a sanitzed carboy

2. add 3 teaspoons pectic enzyme to the cider

3. add one packet of dry ale yeast such as Nottingham

4. put on a stopper and airlock, or loosely cover with sanitized aluminum foil

5. let ferment for a week or so, or until the cider is at the balance of sweetness /dryness you desire; if you use a hydrometer, a reading of 1.010 will be semi-dry

6. prepare a priming solution of 2/3 cups white sugar boiled in 2 cups of water; cool to room temperature

7. add priming solution and cider to bottling bucket

8. bottle and cap, using bottles made for carbonated beverages such as beer or champagne bottles

9. allow bottles to conditioned and carbonate in an area at least 70 F

10. occasionally test bottles for carbonation process by opening one and tasting

11. when desired carbonation level is reached (but before bottles begin exploding), pasteurize the cider to kill the yeast and stop fermentation; prepare a hot water bath of 190 F water, carefully set the bottles in the bath for ten minutes and remove; repeat until all the bottles are pasteurized

'll try to expand here - if I'm not answering your questions or am unclear, just let me know.

With the method I use, you can choose to bottle it as sweet or as dry as you want. For my tastes, 1.010 specific gravity is about right, but you can also be guided by your taste buds. I watch the fermentation pretty carefully for a few days, when it appears to be slowing down, i take a hydrometer reading and taste the sample. Depending on the outcome, I may do it again the next day or in a couple of days. It takes about a week for the cider to ferment to the level of dryness/sweetness I like, which is what I would call semi-dry.

Alternatively, you can let it ferment out completely dry, where the yeast eat all the sugars, and then back sweeten it with more juice. Folks who use that method then have to add another chemical to stop the fermentation (because the yeast will start up again, eating the sugar in the newly-added juice). Then they can keg it to get sparkling cider or bottle it as-is for still cider.

I really like sparkling cider, though, and because i generally brew with an eye to using organic ingredients, I like to use the pasteurization method rather than the chemically-induced method, if that makes any sense.

So, at this point you've got a carboy full of cider that has fermented to the point where it is as sweet/dry as you want it - but if you let it go, it would keep on fermenting. The next step is bottling.

I'm unfamiliar with how you bottle wine or mead, so i don't know what equipment you have. I use a bottling bucket with a spigot on it, attach a tube to the spigot with a bottling wand on the end of the tube. I don't think it really matters how you get the cider into the bottles though.

The bottles you use, though, are very important. You cannot use ordinary wine bottles for sparkling cider - they are made for still beverages, not carbonated and are not strong enough. You must use beer bottles or sparkling wine bottles. If you use beer bottles, you would need to get a handheld bottle capper (not very expensive) and caps (very cheap). But sparkling wine bottles with corks and wire are fine too.

With the method I use, we are carbonating in the bottle, so we need yeast and sugar to be present. There is still residual sugar left in the cider, but because I don't want the cider to get any drier than it already is, I add priming sugar - regular cane sugar from the grocery store is fine. The yeast will eat that up and leave the sugar from the juice, and the carbonated cider will have the same balance of dry/sweetness as when i tasted it prior to bottling.

Before bottling, for a 5 gallon batch, I boil 2/3 cup of white sugar in two cups of water. The boiling is to get it fully dissolved and sanitized. I let it cool to room temperature (you can put your pot in an ice bath to speed the process). Then I pour the priming solution into my bottling bucket and rack (via a siphoning tube) the cider into the bottling bucket, onto the priming sugar. I have no idea if i need to be as careful as I am about not oxidizing the cider - not splashing it around. With beer, you need to be careful about that at this point, but i'm not sure about cider.

In any case, i'm careful not splash it - i take the siphon tube and put it down into the priming sugar solution, so that the cider is flowing out and through the solution, not splashing. This also assures that the priming solution is thoroughly mixed into the cider.

Then I bottle and cap. I put the capped bottles in a relatively warm space, low to mid 70s if possible, to help the yeast get active.

After a few days, I put a bottle in the fridge for a few hours and then open it, to check on the carbonation level. Assuming its under carbonated, I wait a few days and try another, until the carbonation seems right. If you use sparkling wine bottles, this method could be pretty wasteful - the bottles are so much bigger than beer bottles.

The risk here, as you noted in your OP, is exploding bottles. So when the carbonation is right, I then pasteurize the bottles in a hot water bath to kill the yeast. I use a large stock pot, with 190 F water - i put about six bottles in at a time and let them sit for ten minutes. I leave a floating thermometer in the water, so i can monitor the temperature and add heat if necessary, before putting in the next set of bottles. I use kitchen tongs to carefully put the bottles into the water bath and take them out.

Hope this is helpful, MW. You might look around the cider forum for the other method I mentioned - ferment dry, back sweeten and stop fermentation with chemicals (sulfites, maybe?) But for me, this pastuerization method fits my needs.
 
Thanks Pappers, for your input and your original Sticky post experiment regarding pasteurization to produce a semi-dry, bottle-conditioned sparkling cider without using chemicals!

Reproducibility is one of the main principles of the scientific method, and refers to the ability of a test or experiment to be accurately reproduced, or replicated, by someone else working independently. (ha-ha Wikipedia:)).

Scientific method is what this rogue scientist is all about! We fermenters are attempting to replicate and, therefore, validate your experiment.

My independent experiment is still ongoing, so I will not predict the results before they happen, however, I lowered the temperature to 170 F instead of 190F and unlike our bottle bomb victim, I use 12 ounce bottles 'Wachusett Brewing Company' and not 22 ounce bottles of unknown origin, with a baking rack on the bottom of the pot.

I, of course, will report the ongoing results of this experiment.

11.8.2010 - Just a little bubbly since yesterday, a tiny little 'pssst' when opening the bottle. I will definitely go 1 more day at least.
 
I have no doubt that Pappers method works, and I most certainly trust experience. I followed Papper's recipe almost to the letter, with the exception being I used 22oz bottles.

I honestly think the size of the bottles is the biggest contributor to my failure. When I looked at the broken pieces, I realized that the thickness of the bottles was the same as a standard 12oz bottle. From a physics standpoint, and dealing with pressures, if you have two pressure vessels, made of the same thickness, the larger vessel can hold more volume, but less pressure. The smaller vessel can hold more pressure, but less volume. I think that's basically what happened here. The pressure, which would have normally been fine in a 12oz bottle, was too high for a 22oz bottle.

I think Papper's method is perfectly fine as long as you use quality 12oz bottles.
 
I followed Papper's recipe almost to the letter, with the exception being I used 22oz bottles.

Your recipe also included adding sugar and concentrate, making it a bigger cider than the cider I make. I don't know if that has any affect - alcohol level could - but it is a difference.
 
Bad news. I tested the carbonation level last night and it was pretty good. I was going to pasteurize over lunch today, but it is too late, gushers! Now I will carefully pour all the cider back in a sterilized fermenter and have another go.

Forgot to mention that SG in bottles when 1st bottling was 1.010. No cold crash before bottling. 3 days had passed at 68-70 F and the result was gushers. Funny thing was that, like I said, the night before, the carbonation looked good but I thought it good use one more half day. I guess not! This is another warning to check a bottle right before you pasteurize.

After I carefully poured all the bottle back into a sanitized fermenter, I let the solution de-carb for 6 hours. Took an SG reading and we are at 1.006. Yikes! I will re-bottle tonight. Sit for one day, and then pasteurize bottles. Let sit for a weak or so and then hopefully, enjoy! I know there is a risk of oxidation going back into the fermenter, but I reasoned this batch was for short term drinking and the risk was minimal in that time frame.
 
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