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Old 08-31-2010, 06:09 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Indian_villager View Post
Is pasteurization of cider after fermentation absolutely necessary? I just figured I could let the fermentation run its course and then bottle with a wee bit of prime and be fine. Am I wrong in thinking this?
That works fine for dry ciders or ciders backsweetened with non-fermentable sugar, but for naturally sweet bottle carbed ciders you need to stop the yeast after carbonation.
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Old 08-31-2010, 03:45 PM   #22
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Does pasteurizing not taint the flavour? I was under the impression doing so would give the cider a cooked apple-type taste

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Old 08-31-2010, 04:32 PM   #23
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The method I use (10 minutes at 190) has no noticeable affect on the taste of the type of cider I make (a draft-style light sparkling cider).

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Old 08-31-2010, 06:32 PM   #24
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Pappers, Have you been able to keep any of these for a long time ? I'm wondering how they are after a year in the cellar ?

The reason I ask this, I just tried a couple of my ciders from last fall, and one has gone towards vinegar, and the other I haven't had time to figure itout. I just discovered all this last night.

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Old 08-31-2010, 08:30 PM   #25
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No, I've not kept these nearly that long. The type of cider on which I use this method is a draft-style cider - light, fresh, not made for long aging (nor does it need it). I think of this style as the Cream Ale or Witbier of the cider world - ready to drink quickly and good fresh.

Perhaps Ed or someone with a greater knowledge of long-aging ciders can step in, but my understanding is that cider turns to vinegar when processes such as acetero bacteria take over.


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Old 09-01-2010, 10:06 AM   #26
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I also recommend this be made a sticky.
I think it is the only good answer to the ever present "how can I make a sweet, carbonated, cider".

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Old 09-01-2010, 01:28 PM   #27
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I agree that the immediate fusel flavor was probably a difference in fermentation process/ingredients.... Nothing to do with Pasturization....

I was originally going to do a batch of Apfelwein -- started with Fruit stand fresh cider + 2 cans of Apple juice concentrate. OG started out pretty high (For a cider).... Then, as I read more, I decided that I like a slightly sweet cider much better -- so it was time to cold crash and bottle it as sparkling Cider -- I ended up with about 8% ABV....

Another thing I should add -- I didn't bother priming at all... I just used the natural carbonation provided by the yeast to carbonate the bottles...

I cold crashed at 1.010 in the fridge. Racked off, back sweetened back up to 1.020 with frozen apple juice concentrate and immediately bottled and pasturized.

Since I had not degassed at all -- it had *PLENTY* of carbonation without any sort of priming....

Flavor wise -- Amazing.. My favorite cider so far.... None of the icky, weird, bitter nasty flavors from letting it run all the way past 1.000... Not watery from white sugar... just Smooth and very intensely appley with a good tart apple sweetness....

Thanks

John

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Old 09-02-2010, 12:12 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kauai_Kahuna View Post
I also recommend this be made a sticky.
I think it is the only good answer to the ever present "how can I make a sweet, carbonated, cider".
Kahuna, I think it is a good, simple answer to the challenge of making a sweet, carbonated, bottle conditioned cider. It's not the only approach, though. For example, you can let the cider ferment to dry, backsweeten with a non-fermentable like lactose, prime and bottle. Another option is to cold crash the bottles.

Both of those options have downsides. Backsweetening with a non-fermentable affects taste - I think using the juice's natural sweetness adds to the apple-flavor of the juice. With cold crashing, you need a lot of frig room and you can't give the cider away or take it to a party.
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Old 09-03-2010, 03:05 PM   #29
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Great thread - sounds like this could be used for root beer or other sweet carbonated soft drinks too? Those are bottle bombs if you can't get them cold at just the right time.

You could put an uncapped bottle of water with a thermometer into the water bath at the same starting temperature of your 'product' to get a good idea of the temperature in the other bottles. Otherwise, it's a little tough to know just how hot your contents are getting to, but I don't doubt that a ten minute bath in 190F gets you there. Did some digging on Pasteurization temperatures & times:

http://www.iddeas.com/l2-1900.html
http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11201

I see ranges of 6-50 Pasteurization Units, with 50 for non-alcoholic bevs. Formula for Pasteurization Unit (PU):


P.U.'s/minute = 1.2023 to the power of (T-140) where T = temperature in F
P.U.'s/minute = 1.389 to the power of (T-60) where T = temperature in C

Looks like 160-165F will give 50 P.U.'s with just 30-75 SECONDS exposure.
170F is 12 seconds,
180F just 2 seconds.

Of course, since we can't control the temperature variation bottle-to-bottle and even temperature gradients within a bottle, we do need to shoot for the high end on all these.

Dishwashers with sanitize settings get to 167F, I'd assume this happens slow and long enough to get the bottle contents over 160F for 75 seconds, but I don't know. Anyone got a waterproof temperature logger that can fit in a 12 ouncer?

-kenc

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Old 09-04-2010, 02:01 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenc_zymurgy View Post
Great thread - sounds like this could be used for root beer or other sweet carbonated soft drinks too? Those are bottle bombs if you can't get them cold at just the right time.

You could put an uncapped bottle of water with a thermometer into the water bath at the same starting temperature of your 'product' to get a good idea of the temperature in the other bottles. Otherwise, it's a little tough to know just how hot your contents are getting to, but I don't doubt that a ten minute bath in 190F gets you there. Did some digging on Pasteurization temperatures & times:

http://www.iddeas.com/l2-1900.html
http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11201

I see ranges of 6-50 Pasteurization Units, with 50 for non-alcoholic bevs. Formula for Pasteurization Unit (PU):


P.U.'s/minute = 1.2023 to the power of (T-140) where T = temperature in F
P.U.'s/minute = 1.389 to the power of (T-60) where T = temperature in C

Looks like 160-165F will give 50 P.U.'s with just 30-75 SECONDS exposure.
170F is 12 seconds,
180F just 2 seconds.

Of course, since we can't control the temperature variation bottle-to-bottle and even temperature gradients within a bottle, we do need to shoot for the high end on all these.

Dishwashers with sanitize settings get to 167F, I'd assume this happens slow and long enough to get the bottle contents over 160F for 75 seconds, but I don't know. Anyone got a waterproof temperature logger that can fit in a 12 ouncer?

-kenc
Interesting links, but they seem to be talking about different methods of pasteurization, the first one is doing flash pasteurization and the second is tunnel pasteurization, like a commercial brewer.

With bottle pasteurization it takes longer for the heat to transfer into the bottle, so you do need to leave it longer.

Toppers posted an extract from a Cornell paper about bottle pasteurizing cider.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/pasteurization-methods-stabilize-bottled-fermented-apple-cider-71180/

The same is true for the dishwasher method, even though the heat cycle lasts 10 mins, the hot water is only spraying over the bottles, not in constant contact, so it doesn't transfer heat as well.

I know someone tested the dishwasher method with an infrared thermometer, but i can't find the post at the moment. to many long threads about bottle sanitation.
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