hi im new to the forum and new to wine making. Im doing a recipe from this web site using grape concentrate and after researching a bit im finding that some folks are saying if you dont top off your carboy after primary fermentation it will ruin the wine due to oxidation. How can this be true if you are using an airlock?? I have about 4 inches of space in my 5 gallon carboy and it is still fermenting slowly, i figured the extra space would help prevent the lock from blowing off. Will my wine still turn out okay or do I need to take the airlock off and add some more liquid?
topping off carboy?
- Thread starter Honda88
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Honda, you are fine with that air space, since the co2 drove out all of the Oxygen.
However, if you rack your wine into a new carboy, all of that co2 goes away, and since fermentation is done, there will be no new carbonation to drive out the oxygen again.
Since racking wine is often a good idea, you'll need a solution when the time comes. As long as it's sitting in your primary with the air lock in tact, there should be nothing to worry about.
If / when you transfer to a new carboy, there are a number of things you can do.
1) transfer to a smaller carboy, and take up all the head space
2) transfer to a similar-sized container, and top it off with more juice/water
3) place some sterile marbles (100% glass only, please) in the container to take up space
4) "purge" the container with co2 if you have a co2 tank
#2 could throw your ABV calculation off, so be sure to take a gravity reading before and after adding new liquid.
I've never made grapefruit wine, but I imagine racking to a new carboy is a good idea to help clarify your wine. You could bottle it directly and let it age in the bottles. It just may not clear up as nicely as you want.
I hope this helps.
However, if you rack your wine into a new carboy, all of that co2 goes away, and since fermentation is done, there will be no new carbonation to drive out the oxygen again.
Since racking wine is often a good idea, you'll need a solution when the time comes. As long as it's sitting in your primary with the air lock in tact, there should be nothing to worry about.
If / when you transfer to a new carboy, there are a number of things you can do.
1) transfer to a smaller carboy, and take up all the head space
2) transfer to a similar-sized container, and top it off with more juice/water
3) place some sterile marbles (100% glass only, please) in the container to take up space
4) "purge" the container with co2 if you have a co2 tank
#2 could throw your ABV calculation off, so be sure to take a gravity reading before and after adding new liquid.
I've never made grapefruit wine, but I imagine racking to a new carboy is a good idea to help clarify your wine. You could bottle it directly and let it age in the bottles. It just may not clear up as nicely as you want.
I hope this helps.
DoctorCAD
Well-Known Member
You really don't want more surface area exposed to oxygen than necessary. Fill the carboy up to the neck, 1/2" makes a big difference in how much surface area is exposed.
CO2, while heavier than air, will not keep oxygen out unless there is a constant source of it being generated by the wine (or a tank). Gasses mix, there isn't anything you can do to stop that from happening besides generating so much that it forces the mix off the wine.
Secondary fermentation is slow, and doesn't generate enough CO2 to drive oxygen away, primary generally does.
CO2, while heavier than air, will not keep oxygen out unless there is a constant source of it being generated by the wine (or a tank). Gasses mix, there isn't anything you can do to stop that from happening besides generating so much that it forces the mix off the wine.
Secondary fermentation is slow, and doesn't generate enough CO2 to drive oxygen away, primary generally does.
I guess i didnt specify, I already racked from my primary but when I put the airlock on there was still co2 being emitted from the wine and there still is today and that was about a week and a half ago. So basically as long as I dont take the lock off I can let it stop fermenting and bottle without adding liquid right?
JonK331
Well-Known Member
Yes. And if you do add liquid, make sure to boil it first to drive out the O2.
DoctorCAD
Well-Known Member
Well, that's a new one!
You could always add wine, without boiling.
I would add wine now, no excessive headspace in the secondary.
DoctorCAD
Well-Known Member
Cheap wine can be used, its a normal practice.
Didn't intend to insult you, but I truly have NEVER heard of boiling a liquid to drive off oxygen. Boiling may hold down infections, but that isn't a huge concern when adding to a 12% ABV mixture.
Didn't intend to insult you, but I truly have NEVER heard of boiling a liquid to drive off oxygen. Boiling may hold down infections, but that isn't a huge concern when adding to a 12% ABV mixture.
JonK331
Well-Known Member
In brewing, this is common practice for both yeast washing and top off. This is also why we have to oxygenate/aerate after the boil to ensure a healthy aerobic/reproduction phase for the yeast. Sorry if my comment was harsh but this is common knowledge on the brewing side. That's why I thought my post would be a value add.
DoctorCAD
Well-Known Member
No problems...
I really dont wanna add any liquid too it, I just dont see the point in it while there is still co2 being emitted from the wine... It seems like im getting two opinions...one says its okay and the other says its not... Im currently getting my A.S. in college and personally dont understand how oxygen could work itself into the wine. If you put a fish in a water tank and close the lid it will die, i thought the purpose of an airlock was too keep air out of the carboy and if it has been emitting c02 for quite some time now its unlikely there is any oxygen in the carboy. I am a student and am open to expert opinions...
DoctorCAD
Well-Known Member
You have been given 2 opinions, one states to use boiled water, one states to use wine.
Read almost any of the thousands of posts on this or other wine boards and the vast majority of them would point to topping off after the vigorous fermentation is done. Commercial wineries use a "floating" lid on their large tanks to keep the surface area of the liquid exposed to air to a minimum.
Remember, you aren't the first person to think your way, winemaking has been around for thousands of years. Processes have been evolving during that time and one is to minimize air exposure by topping up. You can follow along or not, winemaking is an experiment even to the most studied vintner. It depends on thousands of complex variables to go together to be drinkable.
Your choice...
Read almost any of the thousands of posts on this or other wine boards and the vast majority of them would point to topping off after the vigorous fermentation is done. Commercial wineries use a "floating" lid on their large tanks to keep the surface area of the liquid exposed to air to a minimum.
Remember, you aren't the first person to think your way, winemaking has been around for thousands of years. Processes have been evolving during that time and one is to minimize air exposure by topping up. You can follow along or not, winemaking is an experiment even to the most studied vintner. It depends on thousands of complex variables to go together to be drinkable.
Your choice...
JonK331
Well-Known Member
All I said is that IF you add water, you should boil it first. If I were you, and I were confident that the head space is filled with CO2 because of continued fermentation after transfer, I would not top off.
No. This imaginary "co2 blanket" doesn't stay in there indefinitely, and even if it did remember that it's not 100% c02. Even if you added co2 with a co2 tank, gasses mix with each other and seek equilibrium. (See the "Ideal Gas Law").
Again, look up "Ideal Gas Law", if you want to know the physics behind the explanation.
im just starting out and trying to understand the whole oxidation thing...it doesnt make sense to me...when you bottle wine you bottle it after fermentation and clearing is done and when you do this you trap oxygen into the bottle correct?? with this being said wouldnt aging a bottle of wine oxidize it even greater then fermentation would because oxygen is the primary gas and co2 is not being emitted....???
BTW yooper im using your recipe and it smells amazing so far......
Too increase my education im not going to top off my wine...if my experiment fails it will be educational, if it is a success it will be educational... Thanks to everyone who contributed to my post I will let ya'll know how it turns out, cheers..
BTW yooper im using your recipe and it smells amazing so far......
Too increase my education im not going to top off my wine...if my experiment fails it will be educational, if it is a success it will be educational... Thanks to everyone who contributed to my post I will let ya'll know how it turns out, cheers..
DoctorCAD
Well-Known Member
JonK331
Well-Known Member
Hey Yooper, just to clarify. I understand the ideal gas law and the whole equilibrium thing but if the airlock is not removed, there is a barrier in place to prevent the gases from mixing right? So if the airlock stays in place the CO2 WILL stay there indefinitely because other gases can't travel through the liquid in the airlock. Am I wrong?
jon this was my exact thinking too but seeing as im a complete newb to wine making im having second thoughts and considering topping it off while its still fermenting. I really dont wanna risk a 5 gallon batch maybe I will do this experiment with a smaller batch... I could see where there could possibly be a small amount of oxygen but wether it is enough to actually cause oxidation to occur im not sure....if oxygen really destroyed wine fast you wouldnt be able to age your bottles without it becoming oxidized because you push oxygen into your wine when you cork it.....
JonK331
Well-Known Member
Exactly. I wouldn't top off. Water will dilute and adding cheap wine is.... well... adding cheap wine. Seeing as wine ages in oak barrels which certainly are slightly permeable and there is definitely some head space I don't really think it's an issue. Besides, isn't that one of the things that happens to wine as it ages? Very slow oxidation through the cork and from the space between the cork and the wine? Also, isn't that what happens when you swirl wine in a glass to "open it up?" Obviously you don't want to add O2 unnecessarily but...
I think oxidation would only be a problem if you exposed your wine to too much oxygen for too long of a period, obviously its not something that happens quickly or your wine would be destroyed everytime you rack or bottle.... Also I remember reading an article from a commercial vineyard stating they dont use any kind of airlock at all...they literally leave the wine open to air during the whole entire process. They also have special fermenting rooms that filter all the bad yeast and what not but im pretty sure the wine is still exposed to oxygen... I went ahead and topped it off....I added alittle bit of campden too make sure i didnt introduce yucky stuff...I hope i didnt mess the fermentation up I think I read somewhere on here that campden doesnt stop fermentation so hopefully im still okay.
I know it’s been years but how did this wine turn out.? I am new, attempting my first batch of prickly pear wine and have a similar situation. Mine is still in primary fermentation and just over 4 gallons. I am thinking I will top off my secondary carboy with blend of water (boiled) and juice in similar proportion? Anyone have other suggestions?
