Lower than expected efficiency.

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DigB

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I need help, I just brewed a stout using the BIABicus software and I was told that I ended up with aprox 62% efficiency and I'm not sure why. I filled everything out as I should. I started with the same amount of water, I double crushed my grains using the finest setting on the LHBS mill. I mashed @152+or-2 degrees for 90 min. It was cooler outside and it was fairly windy, granted the lid was on and I had the MT covered with a heavy blanket. I boiled with a rolling boil for 90 min, my evap was as predicted....I'm not sure what else to do. I didn't change the water or adjust the PH. I did recently ask the head brewer at a local brewery what they did to the water and they told me nothing but cold filter. Any help would be appreciated.

Also, I have been getting the same efficiencies for the last few brews and for the record this is my 5th beer using this type of brewing and I did score a 28 on my first entry to a home brew competition so I know I can make ok beer.
 
Adjust recipes to match the efficiency you are getting. On normal beers I am usually around 70% BIAB, but I've had a few go lower.

Add a pound or two of grain. or Mash in thicker and use a batch sparge. or grind your own grain. or go with what you got.
 
There could be tons of reasons why your effeciency is 62%. How old is the grain? What was the grain bill? What was the grain-water ratio during mash? Are you sure you measured the water volume/og right and entered in correct numbers (not insulting your intelligence)?....

I started to get low effiency out of the blue and I'm pretty sure it was because I was using old grain (stored for a year in different temps) Or i got slack on water volumesince nothing else in my brew process changed. Could be wrong.

If you know your numbers are right,I also suggest altering the brewing process. Maybe lower or raise mash temps, different mash ratio, etc.
 
BrewWNC said:
There could be tons of reasons why your effeciency is 62%. How old is the grain? What was the grain bill? What was the grain-water ratio during mash? Are you sure you measured the water volume/og right and entered in correct numbers (not insulting your intelligence)?....



I started to get low effiency out of the blue and I'm pretty sure it was because I was using old grain (stored for a year in different temps) Or i got slack on water volumesince nothing else in my brew process changed. Could be wrong.



If you know your numbers are right,I also suggest altering the brewing process. Maybe lower or raise mash temps, different mash ratio, etc.
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The water was correct based on what the software determined I needed based on the desired OG. Also the pot is marked and I have a dip stick. As for the grain, I picked it up and crushed it two days ago from the LHBS. I don't have the ratio in front of me but I do a full volume mash. I ended up with almost 6 gallons out of 6kgs of grain. 70% 2 Row and a bunch of other stuff to make the stout.
 
DigB said:
The water was correct based on what the software determined I needed based on the desired OG. Also the pot is marked and I have a dip stick. As for the grain, I picked it up and crushed it two days ago from the LHBS. I don't have the ratio in front of me but I do a full volume mash. I ended up with almost 6 gallons out of 6kgs of grain. 70% 2 Row and a bunch of other stuff to make the stout.
Click to expand...

The people that posted above have all good ideas but the first place to look when you have low efficiency in BIAB is the milling of the grain. So long as you use the crusher at the LHBS you are at their mercy and while they may have good intentions their mill is most likely set to accommodate the brewers with conventional mash tuns so they don't have to deal with a stuck sparge. Even double milling isn't likely to get you the best milling for BIAB. If you want to go for higher efficiency, get your own mill. This cheap mill from Discount Tommy works very well for BIAB. http://www.discounttommy.com/p-189-...er-for-wheat-grains-or-use-as-a-nut-mill.aspx You can hand crank it like I do or you can use a heavy duty drill to power it.
 
RM-MN said:
The people that posted above have all good ideas but the first place to look when you have low efficiency in BIAB is the milling of the grain. So long as you use the crusher at the LHBS you are at their mercy and while they may have good intentions their mill is most likely set to accommodate the brewers with conventional mash tuns so they don't have to deal with a stuck sparge. Even double milling isn't likely to get you the best milling for BIAB. If you want to go for higher efficiency, get your own mill. This cheap mill from Discount Tommy works very well for BIAB. http://www.discounttommy.com/p-189-...er-for-wheat-grains-or-use-as-a-nut-mill.aspx You can hand crank it like I do or you can use a heavy duty drill to power it.
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The mill at the store is an adjustable one, I personally set it on the finest setting. They also have a mill used for crushing grain for a different type of drink, and it's really fine. I'm told it's not like flour but it's extremely fine... I'm a little scared to try it because I don't want to ruin my grain.
 
DigB said:
The mill at the store is an adjustable one, I personally set it on the finest setting. They also have a mill used for crushing grain for a different type of drink, and it's really fine. I'm told it's not like flour but it's extremely fine... I'm a little scared to try it because I don't want to ruin my grain.
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You won't ruin the grain by milling it fine. Mine looks like cornmeal with ripped up husks in it.:rockin:
 
I was getting low 60% efficiency wise (measured post mash/pre boil) with a no sparge BIAB. Annoyed me so I experimented with reserving a gallon or so for a simple sparge. Also tried dunking the bag in room temp water. That and pressing the wort out of the grains helped.

What are you doing with the bag of grains post mash, how are you draining it, pressing it, etc...?
 
BrewWNC said:
There could be tons of reasons why your effeciency is 62%. How old is the grain? What was the grain bill? What was the grain-water ratio during mash?
Click to expand...


I just checked my grain to water ratio and it's 3.10qt/lb or 6.47 l/kg
 
That ratio is too high in my opinion. The "average" is 1-2qt/lb. Anything over or under that may lead to efficiency issues. I prefer 1.25/lb with most beers.
 
BrewWNC said:
That ratio is too high in my opinion. The "average" is 1-2qt/lb. Anything over or under that may lead to efficiency issues. I prefer 1.25/lb with most beers.
Click to expand...


It may be high for traditional 3 vessel brewing but it isn't high at all for full volume BIAB. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding in regards to BIAB. It is a no sparge, minimal equipment style of brewing that still produces award winning beer. The stout recipe I had low efficiency with came from another brewer in my club that has scored in the high 40's in competition with this same recipe. This is why I posted in the BIAB section.
 
You are correct. But this methods effectiveness is debatable. i did biab for 2 years before jumping into all grain. I would not suggest the full volume. I did this for a while and switched. Felt like I got better effeciency when conducting the brew like all grain session with sparging. But to each his own.

If you rule out everything else (water crush, etc.), I'd try changing the water/ grain ratio and adding a form of sparging.
 
There's a reason the first response in biab efficiency questions is " hows the crush?" Either get some feeler gauges($10) use the other mill they have, or buy a cheap corona knockoff mill ($30~)
 
BrewWNC said:
You are correct. But this methods effectiveness is debatable. i did biab for 2 years before jumping into all grain. I would not suggest the full volume. I did this for a while and switched. Felt like I got better effeciency when conducting the brew like all grain session with sparging. But to each his own.

If you rule out everything else (water crush, etc.), I'd try changing the water/ grain ratio and adding a form of sparging.
Click to expand...

BIAB IS ALL GRAIN! Please stop spouting false information. :mad:

Brew on :mug:
 
Crush....

For BIAB you want almost flour... You can't be too fine.

Failing a tighter crush, try reserving a gallon or 2 (I do 1.5g) for a mashout/dunk sparge at 170F.. You may pick up a few points that way.

But it's almost always the crush :)

I do ~2.5q/lb BTW

I use a Corona mill tightened so tight that the plates rub when there's no grain going through... tighten 'till you're scared then go a half turn more!
 
That's good to know, I plan on brewing a smash Maris Otter/cascade beer soon so I'll try the other mill they have at the LHBS.
My other option is adding more grain, I use the BIABacus software and there is an option to adjust your efficiency so that it takes into account poor brew house efficiency and tells you how much grain you need to get your target OG.

On a side note has anyone done a Maris Otter smash beer before? Opinions?
 
Wow aggressive, Doug. biab is only all grain if it is in fact all grain. Not all biab is all grain if extract is used-as is common is in biab. We don't know the supplies so we don't know if extract was used. Yes, I may have unconsciously implied biab was not all grain. This was not my intention. Biab can be all grain but not always.

Implying that biab is definitively all grain, as you imply in bold caps, is incorrect.

Lets work on helping the op solve his problem.

Dig, a marris otter/ cascade smash sounds awesome. MO Is one of my favorite grains and I grow multiple cascade plants. Never done a smash with mo and cascade though. Not sure why I haven't. Before adding more grain to offset low efficiency, I would try some of the suggestions-unless money is not a issue and you don't necessary need better efficiency. The key, in my opinion, is getting a "good", consistant brew house efficiency so you don't have to continually make major adjustments and/or guess.
 
BrewWNC said:
Wow aggressive, Doug. biab is only all grain if it is in fact all grain. Not all biab is all grain if extract is used-as is common is in biab. We don't know the supplies so we don't know if extract was used. Yes, I may have unconsciously implied biab was not all grain. This was not my intention. Biab can be all grain but not always.

Implying that biab is definitively all grain, as you imply in bold caps, is incorrect.

Lets work on helping the op solve his problem.

Dig, a marris otter/ cascade smash sounds awesome. MO Is one of my favorite grains and I grow multiple cascade plants. Never done a smash with mo and cascade though. Not sure why I haven't. Before adding more grain to offset low efficiency, I would try some of the suggestions-unless money is not a issue and you don't necessary need better efficiency. The key, in my opinion, is getting a "good", consistant brew house efficiency so you don't have to continually make major adjustments and/or guess.
Click to expand...

MO is probably the most commong malt for smashes, 2row is juts too boring imo.

BIAB is not commonly used with extract, but is usually full volume all grain mash. I'm sure the strong retort/clarification is that fact that the 3vessel traditional guys (including you here) refer to BIAB as BIAB then 3vessel as all grain. That's just not clear wording, should refer to it as BIAB and MLT/3vessel. Both are all grain, unless stated otherwise.
 
BrewWNC said:
That ratio is too high in my opinion. The "average" is 1-2qt/lb. Anything over or under that may lead to efficiency issues. I prefer 1.25/lb with most beers.
Click to expand...
I had my lowest efficiency to date today (80.5%). The only thing I did differently was lower water to grain ratio so I could have a larger sparge. So I doubt that will help.
 
Have you double checked how you are calculating your efficiency?
 
BrewWNC said:
Wow aggressive, Doug. biab is only all grain if it is in fact all grain. Not all biab is all grain if extract is used-as is common is in biab. We don't know the supplies so we don't know if extract was used. Yes, I may have unconsciously implied biab was not all grain. This was not my intention. Biab can be all grain but not always.

Implying that biab is definitively all grain, as you imply in bold caps, is incorrect.
Click to expand...

I was intentionally emphatic. I have seen many posts on this board that imply that for it to be "real" all grain, it has to be three vessel. It can lead to confusion, especially among new brewers. Some BIAB purists believe that it's only true BIAB if it's one vessel, full volume mash. I am not a purist. I mash in a bag in my BK, and usually do a small pour over sparge. BIAB can be done single vessel, but you can't batch or fly sparge in a single vessel. There are many ways to do all grain, and none of them are "wrong." They each have their attractions for different people for different reasons.

There does not seem to be the same level of confusion on this board concerning partial mash vs. BIAB, even though most partial mash probably use does mash in a bag. You appear to be trying to maybe create such confusion with the way your post is worded. I have not seen any other posts that call partial mash BIAB. If you mix mashed grain with extract it's partial mash, no matter how the mashing was done. If you did three vessel, and supplemented with with DME/LME it would then become partial mash.

BrewWNC said:
Lets work on helping the op solve his problem.
Click to expand...

I agree. There have been a number of good suggestions in this thread from people with lots of BIAB experience who have reported excellent efficiencies.

Brew on :mug:
 
jahdub said:
Have you double checked how you are calculating your efficiency?
Click to expand...


I have not, I just trusted that the software was right. It is a widely used software and I assume it's right. I haven't learned how to calculate my efficiency as of yet, I rely on web based calculators. And if there is one that is better than most, I would love to find it!
I agree that fixing issues that cause efficiency would be best instead of adding more grain.
 
Make sure you measure the mash efficiency. Thats the wort that goes into the kettle pre boil. Post brewing efficiency measured in the fermenter will likely be lower and measure losses from trub, wort left in the kettle, etc. Imho not a true measure of mash efficiency.
 
kevreh said:
Make sure you measure the mash efficiency. Thats the wort that goes into the kettle pre boil. Post brewing efficiency measured in the fermenter will likely be lower and measure losses from trub, wort left in the kettle, etc. Imho not a true measure of mash efficiency.
Click to expand...


If that's the case, I was only about 4-6 points off the expected pre-boil so I don't think that's too bad.
 
I don't think you mentioned it yet, but are you pressing on the grains to get more wort out? that will help. Also, reserving some water for a pour-over sparge....maybe a gallon....will help you extract more sweet wort.
 
kevreh said:
I don't think you mentioned it yet, but are you pressing on the grains to get more wort out? that will help. Also, reserving some water for a pour-over sparge....maybe a gallon....will help you extract more sweet wort.
Click to expand...


I do squeeze the heck out of the bag when it's done and I dunk the bag a bunch before I pull it out. I'm not sure if that's the problem. It might help get a point or two but it's sounding like the main problem might be my crush... But I might try a mini sparge to see if that helps.
 
In your second post on this thread you said you got 6gal. of wort, was this a 5gal. recipe?
I've used different water calculators and some suggest more water than others. 7.5 gals seems to work well for me for most recipes. I start out with 7 for the mash and after pulling the bag I sparge the grains with the other 1/2 gallon of room temp water. To me there are alot of variables involved in making a batch of beer and hitting a number, 3 numbers to the right of a decimal point. If you do things consistantly and attempt to make water amounts the only variable you should be able to get dialed into your system after a short while and get a feel for the calculator your using to know if you need to fudge one way or the other.
 
newnick said:
In your second post on this thread you said you got 6gal. of wort, was this a 5gal. recipe?

I've used different water calculators and some suggest more water than others. 7.5 gals seems to work well for me for most recipes. I start out with 7 for the mash and after pulling the bag I sparge the grains with the other 1/2 gallon of room temp water. To me there are alot of variables involved in making a batch of beer and hitting a number, 3 numbers to the right of a decimal point. If you do things consistantly and attempt to make water amounts the only variable you should be able to get dialed into your system after a short while and get a feel for the calculator your using to know if you need to fudge one way or the other.
Click to expand...


Thanks. It was a 5.5 gallon batch that I made so I could get 5 into packaging. I have a feeling my boil off rate is wrong, I'll have to go back and check that out.
 
I had three batches in a row come out a little on the light side, thats when I started paying closer attention. I also got a deal on a refactometer and decided that at the end of the boil I'd check the gravity and if it was low I'd boil longer. Ever since I got the refactometer I've been overshooting the gravity because I've started with a little less water, go figure.
 
newnick said:
I had three batches in a row come out a little on the light side, thats when I started paying closer attention. I also got a deal on a refactometer and decided that at the end of the boil I'd check the gravity and if it was low I'd boil longer. Ever since I got the refactometer I've been overshooting the gravity because I've started with a little less water, go figure.
Click to expand...

Nice job. Just a tip though, it's better to check the preboil gravity and boil for s bit before adding the hops, that why you don't mess up the hop timings and ibu
 
BrewWNC said:
That ratio is too high in my opinion. The "average" is 1-2qt/lb. Anything over or under that may lead to efficiency issues. I prefer 1.25/lb with most beers.
Click to expand...

Isn't that low for no sparge BIAB because you need to account for the sparge water when mashing in too? 1.25 quarts/lb is what I use for regular all grain, but for BIAB I am usually up around 2.25 - 2.5.
 
pricelessbrewing said:
Nice job. Just a tip though, it's better to check the preboil gravity and boil for s bit before adding the hops, that why you don't mess up the hop timings and ibu
Click to expand...

If I knew what the preboil gravity should be that would help, but I don't since I just do kits. If I had a recipe that listed what it should be I would do that though.
 
newnick said:
If I knew what the preboil gravity should be that would help, but I don't since I just do kits. If I had a recipe that listed what it should be I would do that though.
Click to expand...

The great thing is you can figure out what your preboil gravity should be even if they don't supply it.

I use the Brewers Friend app. In the app there's a dilution/boil off calculator. If I want 5.5 gallons of 1.050 wort at the end of my boil, then I put those numbers in, along with my preboil volume (I assumed 6.5 gallons for this example). The calculator says I'd need a preboil gravity of 1.042 to hit 1.050 at the end of the boil.

Easy peasy, and you'll have a good idea if you're going to be on target before you even start. But, you can still take measurements along the way and make adjustments as needed while you're boiling. But as stated, you'll need to consider the impact on your hops additions.
 
I just started using the Brewers Friend site and it looks pretty good as far as web based calculators go. However I'm looking at my water volume and I was told for a beer with an OG an 1.067 and I'm going to need 39.2L (10.36 gallons) of water to get a packaged volume of 20.8L (5.5 gallons) does that seem like too much? thats what a few BIAB calculators have told me. Actually one said 39.79L and the other said 39.2L.

The 39.2 is the same calculator that I have used in the past, I found it at http://biabbrewing.com/brew-day-prep/biab-calculators-and-software/

Other stats

Kettle Diameter 40cm
boil time 90min
Grain Bill 6.8kg all Maris Otter
Total hops 170g (56g of which are dry hopped) all Cascade
 
DigB said:
I just started using the Brewers Friend site and it looks pretty good as far as web based calculators go. However I'm looking at my water volume and I was told for a beer with an OG an 1.067 and I'm going to need 39.2L (10.36 gallons) of water to get a packaged volume of 20.8L (5.5 gallons) does that seem like too much? thats what a few BIAB calculators have told me. Actually one said 39.79L and the other said 39.2L.

The 39.2 is the same calculator that I have used in the past, I found it at http://biabbrewing.com/brew-day-prep/biab-calculators-and-software/

Other stats

Kettle Diameter 40cm
boil time 90min
Grain Bill 6.8kg all Maris Otter
Total hops 170g (56g of which are dry hopped) all Cascade
Click to expand...

That seems rather excessive but super too much since the 90 minute boil and the large grainbill.
 

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