BIAB and Proteins

Since I switched from extract brewing to all grain BIAB, I've noticed some issues with my beer.

First is that the beer seems to have a very short shelf life, especially when it comes to malt flavors. I brewed a British-style bitter not too long ago, and after a week in the keg (three weeks after brewing) all of the Maris Otter flavor had disappeared from the beer. Same with a brown ale I did recently.

Next is head retention. Of the 10+ all BIAB batches I've brewed, only two have left lace on the glass. Beers poor with a good head, but it dissipates very quickly and is always "loose", never thick and creamy.

Lastly, all my beers are hazy. Definitely some chill haze, as things get better as the beer warms up, but even at 70 degrees there is a substantial amount of haze. I've tried cold crashing a beer for a week to see if that helped, but no joy. Pretty sure it's protein haze and not yeast.

FYI, I keg all my beer.

Since these issues started when I began switched from extract to all grain, I'm pretty confident it's not an oxidation issue. However, I was recently re-reading my copy of Charlie Papazian's Homebrewer's Companion, and it mentions that the enzymes that degrade proteins aren't as effective in a thin mash. (I may not have this 100% right, I don't have the book at hand at the moment.) Papazian also says that protein issues can lead to things like poor stability, head retention, and haze. Sound familiar?

He recommends a mash step between 130 and 135 degrees if it becomes necessary to deal with these proteins.

So, I tried an experiment. Last Saturday I brewed one of Northern Brewer's Dawson's Multigrain Red all grain kits. I performed a 20 minute protein rest at 132 degrees, then raised the temp to 152 degrees for 60 minutes and proceeded as normal.

The beer is currently finishing up primary, so a report on results will have to wait. However, there seemed to be a lot less trub at the bottom of the brew kettle at the end of the boil.

Has anyone else tried this? Or am I completely barking up the wrong tree? Thoughts?

So have you done traditional AG mashes (in a cooler), or have you done exclusively BIAB? If it's the second I would say it is a part of your mashing process.

I noticed for my first couple of AG, which were BIAB, my efficiency was normal, the taste subpar, the protein was normal, and there was a possible haze. But now having refined my mashing process (building my mash water, single infusing between 148-156, etc), I find the beer is improving and on track in all the above ways.

Mash thickness is not a concern unless there isn't enough water (below 1.5 vols), go read this: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ity_and_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing

For example, in my process, my brewing water may have been too variable and too hard, causing my ph to suck and be low. Too low of ph prevents alpha enzymes from working, causing a 'loss' in body. Not really a loss, but more like my fermentable profile was set to mostly beta enzymes, causing my mashes to produce slighlty malty sugar water. Once the yeast were finished, all the sugar was eaten and no malt flavor left.
I think Braukaiser says that low ph also helps protein coagulation, hence why I saw so much hot break when I boiled these beers.

I've never brewed all-grain any other way than BIAB. I've got an electric BIAB system from High Gravity, which keeps the temps within a degree of my target. A pump is used to recirculate the wort.

Typically, I measure out my water, add it and and whatever amount of Five Star 5.2 pH buffer is needed and set the temp to about 4 degrees higher than my first rest. Once I'm at my target temp, I add a portion of the grains, stir till there are not dough balls, then repeat until all the grain has been added. I then set the temp to the target rest temp, set my timer, and wait.

Sometimes I'll occasionally stir the mash, especially if the grain bill is rather large. (I've had a large enough filter bed that the wort took so long to strain through that it back up and started to overflow the kettle.)

When time is up I kill the power, raise the grain out of the wort, allow it to drain for 20 minutes or so, then proceed with the boil.

My water is pretty hard, pH of 8.3

Ah, it may be the Five Star 5.2 buffer then, lots of people say it's not so good for what it's meant to do (center your mash ph on 5.2). I'm no expert in water chemistry and I don't have the tools to measure it, but I'd start by trying to get rid of the 5.2 from Five Star. Aint ever heard anything good about, anyone want to weigh in?

I just started using Bru'N'Water and reverse osmosis water to build water using salt additions, seems to have helped me. But that's my process

In fully modified malt there is no protein to break down, it is all converted during the malting process, hence the name "fully modified" (Papazian's book is dated in this regard). The low temp rest can aid in the completion of the B-glucan breakdown which is the cell wall structure that surrounds the protein/starch matrix in the endosperm of the grain. The B-glucan break down starts at the embryo end during malting and it is not unusual for it to be incomplete at the distal end of the grain prior to the grain being kilned.

I don't BIAB but without a grain bed to vorlauf through I would predict a more turbid runoff. You should target a pH of 5.3-5.4.

Use kettle finings (Irish moss) and you might also use gelatin to fine in the fermenter prior to packaging...along with a several day period of cold stabilization.

PhilM said:

I've never brewed all-grain any other way than BIAB. I've got an electric BIAB system from High Gravity, which keeps the temps within a degree of my target. A pump is used to recirculate the wort.

Typically, I measure out my water, add it and and whatever amount of Five Star 5.2 pH buffer is needed and set the temp to about 4 degrees higher than my first rest. Once I'm at my target temp, I add a portion of the grains, stir till there are not dough balls, then repeat until all the grain has been added. I then set the temp to the target rest temp, set my timer, and wait.

Sometimes I'll occasionally stir the mash, especially if the grain bill is rather large. (I've had a large enough filter bed that the wort took so long to strain through that it back up and started to overflow the kettle.)

When time is up I kill the power, raise the grain out of the wort, allow it to drain for 20 minutes or so, then proceed with the boil.

My water is pretty hard, pH of 8.3

Click to expand...

Forget the 5.2 buffer, it's useless. Your starting water pH is not really relevant, you want to target your mash pH which takes into account the acidity and buffering provided by the grains. Calcium aids this and should be higher than 50ppm, I target 80ppm when adjusting RO water.

chrisroarshack said:

Ah, it may be the Five Star 5.2 buffer then, lots of people say it's not so good for what it's meant to do (center your mash ph on 5.2). I'm no expert in water chemistry and I don't have the tools to measure it, but I'd start by trying to get rid of the 5.2 from Five Star. Aint ever heard anything good about, anyone want to weigh in?

I just started using Bru'N'Water and reverse osmosis water to build water using salt additions, seems to have helped me. But that's my process

Click to expand...

I've brewed a few batches without the 5.2 pH buffer, they all had a distinct mineral taste. Not in the hoppy IPA way, much stronger than that. Wasn't that unpleasant, but definitely detracted from the beer.

I sent my water in to Ward labs a while ago. Here's my water report:

pH 8.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 159
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.26
Cations / Anions, me/L 2.8 / 2.9
ppm
Sodium, Na 60
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca < 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 7
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 1
Chloride, Cl 3
Carbonate, CO3 6
Bicarbonate, HCO3 155
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 138
Total Phosphorus, P 0.25
Total Iron, Fe 0.06
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

PhilM said:

Since I switched from extract brewing to all grain BIAB, I've noticed some issues with my beer.

First is that the beer seems to have a very short shelf life, especially when it comes to malt flavors. I brewed a British-style bitter not too long ago, and after a week in the keg (three weeks after brewing) all of the Maris Otter flavor had disappeared from the beer. Same with a brown ale I did recently.

Next is head retention. Of the 10+ all BIAB batches I've brewed, only two have left lace on the glass. Beers poor with a good head, but it dissipates very quickly and is always "loose", never thick and creamy.

Lastly, all my beers are hazy. Definitely some chill haze, as things get better as the beer warms up, but even at 70 degrees there is a substantial amount of haze. I've tried cold crashing a beer for a week to see if that helped, but no joy. Pretty sure it's protein haze and not yeast.

FYI, I keg all my beer.

Since these issues started when I began switched from extract to all grain, I'm pretty confident it's not an oxidation issue. However, I was recently re-reading my copy of Charlie Papazian's Homebrewer's Companion, and it mentions that the enzymes that degrade proteins aren't as effective in a thin mash. (I may not have this 100% right, I don't have the book at hand at the moment.) Papazian also says that protein issues can lead to things like poor stability, head retention, and haze. Sound familiar?

He recommends a mash step between 130 and 135 degrees if it becomes necessary to deal with these proteins.

So, I tried an experiment. Last Saturday I brewed one of Northern Brewer's Dawson's Multigrain Red all grain kits. I performed a 20 minute protein rest at 132 degrees, then raised the temp to 152 degrees for 60 minutes and proceeded as normal.

The beer is currently finishing up primary, so a report on results will have to wait. However, there seemed to be a lot less trub at the bottom of the brew kettle at the end of the boil.

Has anyone else tried this? Or am I completely barking up the wrong tree? Thoughts?

Click to expand...

A haze that doesn't go away when the beer gets warmed seems to say starches that weren't fully converted (that's one way to make your beer hazy like you might in a wit, just dump a tablespoon of flour into the wort after the boil) or hop haze if you used a lot of dry hops.

Heading and head life problems suggest traces of soap in the glassware. I sometimes have 1/2 inch of head at the bottom of the glass after I spent half an hour sipping my beer and lacing all the way down. That isn't a BIAB problem in itself.

A protein rest might be a good idea if you are using a large amount of unmalted wheat.

PhilM said:

I've brewed a few batches without the 5.2 pH buffer, they all had a distinct mineral taste. Not in the hoppy IPA way, much stronger than that. Wasn't that unpleasant, but definitely detracted from the beer.

I sent my water in to Ward labs a while ago. Here's my water report:

pH 8.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 159
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.26
Cations / Anions, me/L 2.8 / 2.9
ppm
Sodium, Na 60
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca < 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 7
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 1
Chloride, Cl 3
Carbonate, CO3 6
Bicarbonate, HCO3 155
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 138
Total Phosphorus, P 0.25
Total Iron, Fe 0.06
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

Click to expand...

That looks like water from a water conditioning system, it's actually very soft and has a lot of Sodium and Bicarb giving you the mineral taste.

Looks like fairly alkaline water without any calcium or magnesium. Not good for brewing in the least. I'd seek other options for your mash water (like adjusting the mineral with salts)

Drinking commercial beer from the same glassware, cleaned in the same way, I don't have any issues with head retention. Also, two of my all-grain beer haven't had that issue. I've got a black IPA on tap right now that has excellent head retention.

Honestly, I could care less about haze and head retention. What I really need to fix is the stability issue. I'm tired of my beer being great for a week, then heading downhill quickly thereafter.

helibrewer said:

That looks like water from a water conditioning system, it's actually very soft and has a lot of Sodium and Bicarb giving you the mineral taste.

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It's the local city water straight from the tap, and we don't have a softener.

I'm in a condo, a reverse ozmosis system is out of the question for the time being. I could buy water, but that can be a pain. Guess that may be what I'm stuck with.

PhilM said:

It's the local city water straight from the tap, and we don't have a softener.

I'm in a condo, a reverse ozmosis system is out of the question for the time being. I could buy water, but that can be a pain. Guess that may be what I'm stuck with.

Click to expand...

Are you in San Fran or New York? That is very nice tap water and can be adjust with some gypsum (CaSO4). You might also try using 1-2% acid malt in your recipes to help with pH (usually about .25 lbs in a 5 gallon recipe).

Are you in San Fran or New York? That is very nice tap water and can be adjust with some gypsum (CaSO4). You might also try using 1-2% acid malt in your recipes to help with pH (usually about .25 lbs in a 5 gallon recipe).

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St. Mary's County, MD.

I'll pick up some gypsum and acid malt and try that instead of the 5.2 buffer. Won't be able to do that before I brew this weekend, so I'll still use the buffer this last time. It does something, it gets rid of that mineral taste.

I should also add that beers brewed without the 5.2 buffer still showed the same stability issues.

OK, just so I'm understanding all this right...fixing my brewing water could correct the stability issue?

PhilM said:

OK, just so I'm understanding all this right...fixing my brewing water could correct the stability issue?

Click to expand...

Yes, and improve fermentation.

I do a few things in my BIAB process.

1. I still do a semi-sparge. I will pour off 1-2 gallons of my (full volume) strike water once it reaches temps and keep it in a cooler so it stays warm. When mashing is complete I will pour this water over the grains to wash them of any remaining sugars. Not only does this make the mash a bit thicker like a traditional mash which should help with the pH I've also seen about a 10% increase in efficiency doing this vs a full volume BIAB mash and you dont have to deal with squeezing the bag. I regularly hit 78-80% mash efficiency with this method.

2. I always do a 10 minute protein rest at 125F. I don't know if this really does anything for me or not but it makes me feel good.


I've never noticed any issues with muted flavors or loss of head retention due to the BIAB process. I've seen other things cause that but not BIAB as a process.

Mhmm, certain levels of certain minerals help the yeast do they job (magnesium especially). Might seem innocuous but minerals are a big component that people look over.

On that note, should I add some gypsum to my starter? Right now all I add to that is wyeast yeast nutrient...I'd imagine that probably is plenty for a starter, but...

No need to put gypsum in the starter, the yeast nutrient is fine. You need the minerals for the mash process, so any benefits you get from these mineral salts is secondary and negligible once you get to fermentation. If anything magnesium and calcium to feed your yeast can come in sufficient amounts from the malt, in addition to other substances (FAN). I'm not sure if sulfate is eaten by yeast for any benefit.

Brief: Yeast nutrient in the starter should be fine, I add it to my primary fermenter no mater recipe I make.

PhilM said:

On that note, should I add some gypsum to my starter? Right now all I add to that is wyeast yeast nutrient...I'd imagine that probably is plenty for a starter, but...

Click to expand...

Assuming you are using extract for your starter there is no reason to add minerals, the water chemistry is most critical for mashing all grain and really does not apply the same for extract wort. I always use yeast nutrient for starters.

PhilM said:

I'm in a condo, a reverse ozmosis system is out of the question for the time being. I could buy water, but that can be a pain. Guess that may be what I'm stuck with.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say an RO system is out of the question. I bought this little guy and it's very compact.

Aquatic Life RO Buddie Three Stage Reverse Osmosis, 50-Gallon https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DOG63OY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

PhilM said:

St. Mary's County, MD.

I'll pick up some gypsum and acid malt and try that instead of the 5.2 buffer. Won't be able to do that before I brew this weekend, so I'll still use the buffer this last time. It does something, it gets rid of that mineral taste.

I should also add that beers brewed without the 5.2 buffer still showed the same stability issues.

Click to expand...

I read you water profile and thought it was remarkably similar to mine. Then I see you're from St. Mary's and so am I! Do you get your water from Metcom? I emailed them asking for a water report for my neighborhood and they sent me the following:


My first BIAB using this water, untreated, gave my beer a really odd, almost tart flavor. I think it was because my mash pH was too high. I just brewed another batch starting from distilled water and adding calcium chloride and gypsum as well as using acid malt in my grain bill. Hopefully this makes a better beer, I will know in a few weeks!

dsaavedra said:

I read you water profile and thought it was remarkably similar to mine. Then I see you're from St. Mary's and so am I! Do you get your water from Metcom? I emailed them asking for a water report for my neighborhood and they sent me the following:

With the exception of pH, we do not sample often for these parameters. Below are the latest data that we have for these parameters:


pH 8.1 – 8.3, sampled monthly

Calcium – 0.73 parts per million, sampled May 2009

Magnesium – 11.1 parts per million, sampled May 1990 (when the well was drilled)

Sodium – 51.5 parts per million, sampled April 2011

Chloride – 2.4 parts per million, sampled May 2009

Sulfate – 3.97 parts per million, sampled May 2009

Alkalinity – 120 parts per million, sampled May 2009​

My first BIAB using this water, untreated, gave my beer a really odd, almost tart flavor. I think it was because my mash pH was too high. I just brewed another batch starting from distilled water and adding calcium chloride and gypsum as well as using acid malt in my grain bill. Hopefully this makes a better beer, I will know in a few weeks!

Click to expand...

The tart you might be getting is astringency which is more like a mouthfeel than an actual flavor. This can be caused by oversparging or sparging with high alkalinity water. Remedy if you see fit by cutting your tap water with distilled or RO water.

The first batch I used Bru'N'Water to make my mash water was fantastic! Hope you get just as good results as I did.

chrisroarshack said:

The tart you might be getting is astringency which is more like a mouthfeel than an actual flavor. This can be caused by oversparging or sparging with high alkalinity water. Remedy if you see fit by cutting your tap water with distilled or RO water.

The first batch I used Bru'N'Water to make my mash water was fantastic! Hope you get just as good results as I did.

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Hmm what I was getting was definitely a flavor and not a mouthfeel. I am aware that high pH mash can cause astringency which is indeed more like a mouthfeel but that's not really what I was getting. I really can't describe the flavor I am getting but both my BIAB batches with tapwater had it, and none of my extract batches had it, so I have to believe it is something to do with the mashing process.

My most recent batch I started with distilled water and added salts using EZ water calculator, hopefully it comes out right!

I had one beer that was like that too, it was a very light beer, somewhat tart without planning it to be tart. I just chalked it up to my yeast because it was an extract recipe. Beer can be so weird!

Yep, that sounds like the same mineral sort of bite/flavor I get when I don't use the 5.2 buffer.

dsaavedra, yes, I'm on mtecom. It's odd that the Metcom report and the Ward labs report show such a difference in magnesium content. But that was only tested when the well was drilled, so who knows? Looks like the two reports were pretty similar.

Going to be brewing when I get off work today. I'm going to forgo the protein rest, add gypsum, 5.2 buffer, mash as normal and see what happens.