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Old 10-03-2012, 05:32 PM   #61
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The Andrew Wakefield case is one of the most prominent cases of medical fraud in the history of medicine. The problem is that Andrew Wakefield was right, and it's the rest of the medical community who performed criminal actions in their attack on him. Paul Offit is an industry shill and he makes a mint off of promoting mandatory vaccinations. Research both sides before throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Typically in a discussion about vaccinations, I do okay, until someone declares support for the Wakefield study. At that point, I'd rather punch that person in the mouth than continue the discussion.

Soooo many BLATANT flaws and red flags....
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Old 10-03-2012, 05:51 PM   #62
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Back on track (a bit): I completely agree with vaccinating for the big nasties - MMR, DTP, Hepatitis -- especially the ones that are likely to cause an epidemic. I can even agree with the flu shot for those with compromised/weak immune systems. As a firefighter, outdoorsman, and hobby carpenter/construction worker, I tend to keep up-to-date on my tetanus shots myself (actually had three of them in a six year period once)

What I CANNOT support is pushing vaccines on the masses for an illness that (assuming a 'normal' immune system), if affected, makes you miserable for 4-6 days and then leaves you alone. Especially for those of us who, at most, get a small cold once or twice a year.

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Old 10-03-2012, 06:07 PM   #63
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Typically in a discussion about vaccinations, I do okay, until someone declares support for the Wakefield study. At that point, I'd rather punch that person in the mouth than continue the discussion.

Soooo many BLATANT flaws and red flags....
Please point them out why don't you?
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:46 PM   #64
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Please point them out why don't you?
The big three:
1) Financial conflict of interest - he was both personally and professionally funded by lawyers seeking to sue the makers of the MMR vaccine.
2) Non-random sample group - some of the subjects in his study were recruited by those same lawyers.
3) Sample group size - millions of vaccines given annually, and he only studies TWELVE kids? Does the term "statistically insignificant" mean anything? (It would be like asking two people if they liked rap music, and then declaring 50% of all people like rap)
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:02 PM   #65
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The big three:
1) Financial conflict of interest - he was both personally and professionally funded by lawyers seeking to sue the makers of the MMR vaccine.
2) Non-random sample group - some of the subjects in his study were recruited by those same lawyers.
3) Sample group size - millions of vaccines given annually, and he only studies TWELVE kids? Does the term "statistically insignificant" mean anything? (It would be like asking two people if they liked rap music, and then declaring 50% of all people like rap)
1) EVERYONE involved with the whole Wakefield case has huge financial conflicts of interest. This is true for both sides. Vaccines are BIG money. Every time a vaccine gets added to the mandatory school list, people make millions if not billions of dollars.

2) The same goes for mesotheleoma studies, but no on will deny that asbestos causes it.

3) It was the first study of its kind, AKA a pilot study. Although the rate of autism is rising, it's still relatively rare. I'd like to know how he should have found 5,000 kids with autism in the UK to study.

Here is the bottom line: side effects DO happen from vaccines, and in the US, you CANNOT hold the manufacturer reponsible either legally or financially. This is where much of the distrust comes from with vaccines.

Doesn't it concern you that the new flu vaccines are not studied each year for safety? I get that you can't study them due to time contstraints, but I guess I am crazy to expect something that's going to be injected into my body to be well studied.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:07 PM   #66
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I have little information on these conspiracy theories, and I usually ignore the conspiracies until the evidence is overwhelming.

But two things that are irrefutable and should be pointed out: there is a huge, HUGE amount of money in pharma, and people will do some seriously unethical and illegal stuff where big money is involved. These pharma companies are out to make money, not to make the world a healthier place. A bit of mistrust and inspection is necessary to keep them honest.
Yep, those two things are irrefutable. An equally irrefutable counterpoint: pharma's products are regulated very heavily by the FDA to be healthy and safe. They go just a bit farther than "a bit of mistrust and inspection"...and that makes all the difference in the world with regard to your two points.

Now the tinfoil hat guys will come back and say the FDA is rigged, biased, crooked, blah, blah, blah. At that point we are way far off the reservation as conspiracy theories go.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:09 PM   #67
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Yep, those two things are irrefutable. An equally irrefutable counterpoint: pharma's products are regulated very heavily by the FDA to be healthy and safe. They go just a bit farther than "a bit of mistrust and inspection"...and that makes all the difference in the world with regard to your two points.

Now the tinfoil hat guys will come back and say the FDA is rigged, biased, crooked, blah, blah, blah. At that point we are way far off the reservation as conspiracy theories go.
I've developed at least 10 medical devices that required FDA clearance. I agree that they are a tough watchdog. One of my clients is getting an FDA audit tomorrow, and they are sweating it.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:43 PM   #68
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I wonder why the FDA won't support herbal remedies, when extracts can be easily standardized and clinical testing shouldn't be any different than testing pharmaceuticals... Not a conspiracy theory, just curious. When I have a sore throat I crush a massive amount of garlic on some toast and the symptoms are typically gone within 12-24 hours. Herbs are highly affective.

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Old 10-03-2012, 08:41 PM   #69
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Yep, those two things are irrefutable. An equally irrefutable counterpoint: pharma's products are regulated very heavily by the FDA to be healthy and safe. They go just a bit farther than "a bit of mistrust and inspection"...and that makes all the difference in the world with regard to your two points.

Now the tinfoil hat guys will come back and say the FDA is rigged, biased, crooked, blah, blah, blah. At that point we are way far off the reservation as conspiracy theories go.
You clearly are not familiar with vaccine regulation if you believe that all vaccines must be proven safe prior to widespread distribution. This is most certainly not the case. What incentive does a vaccine manufacturer really have to prove safety when you can't even sue them if their vaccine harms you? All you can do is file a complaint with the VICP. BTW, the fact that the VICP even has to exist should tell you something......

Also, I'm glad to learn that all of these drugs were proven safe prior to distirbution under the heavy regulation of the FDA, and that no one got hurt when using them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs. Oh wait, they killed more people that the war in the middle east. Sorry, I got confused there for a minute.

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Old 10-03-2012, 08:52 PM   #70
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I wonder why the FDA won't support herbal remedies, when extracts can be easily standardized and clinical testing shouldn't be any different than testing pharmaceuticals... Not a conspiracy theory, just curious. When I have a sore throat I crush a massive amount of garlic on some toast and the symptoms are typically gone within 12-24 hours. Herbs are highly affective.
Natural extracts can't be patented. That's basically it in a nutshell. Without a patent guaranteeing your ROI, no on can afford a proper clinical trial.

And now the FDA is even saying that synthetic copies of natural botanical ingredients cannot legally be sold as dietary supplements http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/...king-promising.

But hey, as stated above, any mention of FDA bias makes me a wacko, right? There's clearly no revolving door at the FDA. I have never heard of anyone working on developing a new drug, and then later having the task of of approving their own drug while employed at the FDA.
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