Interlock Circuit for Brew Panel

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kenh

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Has anyone on this list come up with an interlock circuit to let them run more than one 5500 watt element on a 30 Amp circuit at a time?

I'm asking because when my mash hits the right temperature my RIMS tube PID light flashes on / off quick but most of the time the light is off. This tells me that most of the time my RIMS tube element is off.

There should be a way to turn another element on during my RIMS tube element off cycles. Kegkits claims to be doing this in their brew panel http://goo.gl/SGWgUK. I want to know how his circuit works so I can add one to my brew panel and heat my sparge water during my mash. Right now I'm heating my sparge water after my mash is done and I don't lose too much heat because my mash tun is a 10 gallon GOTT cooler, but I could save a lot of time if my sparge water were waiting for my mash to complete.
 
interesting... should be doable by creating an XOR circuit... buggered if I can remember how to do it using relays right now though :)

Quick google led me to this site... http://www.talkingelectronics.com/CctSymbols/Page11/Page11.html

The XOR function is made up of a combination of AND, NOT and OR... with inputs of A and B you'll need to create

(A AND NOT_B) OR (B and NOT_A)
 
BigFloppy said:
interesting... should be doable by creating an XOR circuit... buggered if I can remember how to do it using relays right now though :)

I'm sure google might be able to help you on this though..

(a.-b) + (-a.b)
Click to expand...

OK, so what's a XOR circuit? Can I do it with a relay?
 
A simple three position on-off-on switch that allows only one of two relays to activate and pass power to the ssr and element its chained with is what most people use and that's what most of the diagrams on this site show?

Didn't you ask about this a few weeks ago? Or was is someone else... I remember the thread going off topic with talk of using direct 30a rated wall switches..
 
definitely an interesting concept (and yes augiedoggy - believe was same person asking about 30A switches)

I could see this almost being feasible or..

would the beaker trip if too much load requested for more than a couple of milliseconds
would the couple of milliseconds that both heater elements could potentially be "on" create a brown-out condition for the panel in general
Does OP have enough room in his case for the additional SSR's needed to implement this
SPDT SSR's are expensive not to mention difficult to find
 
ahh I see I read the question backwards.. My bad..I see what your trying to accomplish here...
Theoretically you should be able to wire a few ssrs up in a way to accomplish this but is there an ssr available that works in reverse to activate power when the trigger side sees NO voltage? that would allow this to work..I know relay switches can be configured to do this but I,ve not seen anything fast enough like an ssr that works this way.
 
It can be easily done if you have a PID with relay output. You just need an extra power supply with any output voltage in 5-24V range and a regular SSR. See part of diagramm.

InterlockCircuitforBrewPanel.jpg
 
kenh said:
Has anyone on this list come up with an interlock circuit to let them run more than one 5500 watt element on a 30 Amp circuit at a time?

I'm asking because when my mash hits the right temperature my RIMS tube PID light flashes on / off quick but most of the time the light is off. This tells me that most of the time my RIMS tube element is off.

There should be a way to turn another element on during my RIMS tube element off cycles. Kegkits claims to be doing this in their brew panel http://goo.gl/SGWgUK. I want to know how his circuit works so I can add one to my brew panel and heat my sparge water during my mash. Right now I'm heating my sparge water after my mash is done and I don't lose too much heat because my mash tun is a 10 gallon GOTT cooler, but I could save a lot of time if my sparge water were waiting for my mash to complete.
Click to expand...
Crydom sells NC solid state relays you can use.
As long the primary circuit is ON the solid state relay is OFF disabeling your secondary device.
 
Is there any way to control the temperature of the device the PID is not tuned for besides manually? The HLT would get the remaining time on ending up at some random temp.

Sent from my EVO using Home Brew mobile app
 
Brad2287 said:
Is there any way to control the temperature of the device the PID is not tuned for besides manually? The HLT would get the remaining time on ending up at some random temp.
Click to expand...

You can use another PID with relay output in thermostat mode or just simple thermostat like STC-1000. Just connect its relay inline with control circuit of HLT SSR
 
Brad2287 said:
Is there any way to control the temperature of the device the PID is not tuned for besides manually? The HLT would get the remaining time on ending up at some random temp.

Sent from my EVO using Home Brew mobile app
Click to expand...

If you use two PIDs you can disable the interlock with the alarm relays (depending on PID).
As long the temperature you are controlling by both PIDs is with in a certain window the interlock is enabled, otherwise disabled.
 
BigFloppy said:
...would the beaker trip if too much load requested for more than a couple of milliseconds...
Click to expand...

I don't know if this is correct but figure 1 here says that if you overload the 30A CB with (2*5500 / 240 =) 45A, or 1.5x overcurrent, it should trip only after more than 80 seconds but no longer than 400 seconds.
 
augiedoggy said:
A simple three position on-off-on switch that allows only one of two relays to activate and pass power to the ssr and element its chained with is what most people use and that's what most of the diagrams on this site show?

Didn't you ask about this a few weeks ago? Or was is someone else... I remember the thread going off topic with talk of using direct 30a rated wall switches..
Click to expand...

That was me. I'm in the process of stuffing all the brew controller parts I have fastened to a piece of plywood into a proper box. I am always bouncing around sites late at night and I read where this guy is selling a controller that does the interlock thing and I thought I would try it. Before I saw the write-up on his site I wanted to do a 3 way switch but his idea seems like a better one.

I have two PIDs - one for my hot liquor tank and one for my RIMS tube. Both PIDs have a SSR output and both PIDs have a alarm relay and a second SSR output that turns on when the relay is on. The PIDs are MYPIN TA4-SSR's. I also have two SSRs, one for the hot liquor tank and one for the RIMS tube. Can I use what I have to make it work or do I need to buy something else?
 
kenh said:
I have two PIDs - one for my hot liquor tank and one for my RIMS tube. Both PIDs have a SSR output and both PIDs have a alarm relay and a second SSR output that turns on when the relay is on. The PIDs are MYPIN TA4-SSR's. I also have two SSRs, one for the hot liquor tank and one for the RIMS tube. Can I use what I have to make it work or do I need to buy something else?
Click to expand...

You just need a 5 V power supply and an NAND IC. Or 9v power supply and mechanical telay with 9v coil.
 
I decided myself to stick with my original plan of building a "dirt cheap rims coil" found in the DIY section... it uses a $13 1000 watt stainless cartridge heat element which I can run at the same time as either 4500 watt heating element.... I'm going to build it from 3/4" copper tubing and fittings.

The concept here is nice but I'm not sure how well it would really work in use. I'm curoius to hear your results though.
 
augiedoggy

I already have a RIMS tube and it works great. I just want to heat my sparge water at the same time I'm doing my mash.

Brumateur

I can buy a power supply and relay at Radio Shack after I get paid and assuming it doesn't cost too much. How do I wire it all up?
 
augiedoggy said:
I decided myself to stick with my original plan of building a "dirt cheap rims coil" found in the DIY section... it uses a $13 1000 watt stainless cartridge heat element which I can run at the same time as either 4500 watt heating element.... I'm going to build it from 3/4" copper tubing and fittings.

The concept here is nice but I'm not sure how well it would really work in use. I'm curoius to hear your results though.
Click to expand...

Do you have a link to the "dirt cheap rims coil"?
 
kenh said:
augiedoggy

I already have a RIMS tube and it works great. I just want to heat my sparge water at the same time I'm doing my mash.

Brumateur

I can buy a power supply and relay at Radio Shack after I get paid and assuming it doesn't cost too much. How do I wire it all up?
Click to expand...

Yeah that's exactly what I plan On doing.... I use. Herms setup now and have to wait to heat the sparge water to 170..
 
augiedoggy said:
Yeah that's exactly what I plan On doing.... I use. Herms setup now and have to wait to heat the sparge water to 170..
Click to expand...

But I already have a hot liquor tank with a 5500 watt element and a RIMS tube with a 4500 watt element and I want to run both at the same time.

I emailed the guy at www.kegkits.com and he says his system works but he won't tell me how it's wired up. I wonder if he is just using a relay or maybe he is using something else?

I'll stop by Radio Shack after work and see what they have but I still need to know how to hook up the relay and power supply to my PIDs so that when my RIMS tube element is on my hot liquor tank element is off even though I have it turned on. Does anyone have a drawing?
 
I would consider using a DPST contactor to ensure that only one element is powered at a time. You could use a 3-way switch to select the element (RIMS only, Auto, or HLT only)

In Auto mode you could "enable" the HLT whenever the RIMS SSR is OFF or vice versa. The relay output or SSR output SSR on the RIMS could control the contactor. You would want to minimize the number of cycles to the contactor and not use therostat type control and not PWM. This would allow you to use 2 SSRs and 2 PIDs total to control the RIMS and HLT.
 
jCOSbrew said:
I would consider using a DPST contactor to ensure that only one element is powered at a time. You could use a 3-way switch to select the element (RIMS only, Auto, or HLT only)

In Auto mode you could "enable" the HLT whenever the RIMS SSR is OFF or vice versa. The relay output or SSR output SSR on the RIMS could control the contactor. You would want to minimize the number of cycles to the contactor and not use therostat type control and not PWM. This would allow you to use 2 SSRs and 2 PIDs total to control the RIMS and HLT.
Click to expand...

OK, I went on Radio Shack online and looked and they don't have anything that will handle 240V and the current I need, so I won't bother stopping by after work. Instead of switching the element currents through a contactor can I switch the signals between the PIDs and the SSRs? Can anyone draw a schematic that will help?
 
kenh said:
Instead of switching the element currents through a contactor can I switch the signals between the PIDs and the SSRs? Can anyone draw a schematic that will help?
Click to expand...

You can do it like this. But I don't remember if Mypin has a thermostat mode. In a PID mode it can overshoot.

InterlockCircuitforBrewPanelSSRoutput2.jpg
 
I stopped by RadioShack and the person running the store is a IDIOT!!!!! I asked about the part and he said "over in those drawers over there".

I found the part and it's a IC. Someone else shopping for parts showed me their prototype boards and told me I need to also buy some capacitors to filter voltage to the IC. He also talked me out of buying a Radio Shack power supply he said I can use a cell phone charger and I already have an old one at home. I told him what I was doing with the parts and he suggested that I mount the board to the side of one of my PIDs with some epoxy.
 
While it's always good to use capacitors connected in parallel to voltage supply and placed near IS but for this setup it's not mandatory. Frequencies are low and power supply and a SSR has capacitors as well.
 
Brumateur said:
While it's always good to use capacitors connected in parallel to voltage supply and placed near IS but for this setup it's not mandatory. Frequencies are low and power supply and a SSR has capacitors as well.
Click to expand...

Thanks, the ones he pointed out to me are small disks with two legs coming out of the edge close together. He also looked at the part and said they no longer require 5 VDC, just make sure that the voltage coming in is not greater than the power supply.

I cut the plug off my spare cell phone charger and the wires are too fine to solder - I guess I'll need to buy a power supply anyways.
 
kenh said:
Thanks!!!!! I'm going to try this!
Click to expand...

Well, I took the capacitors and the IC and the prototype board our of their packages today and looked at them. I realized that I don't have a clue about how to wire it all up together, also the loop end of my solder gun is way too large for the legs of the IC. I looked up the IC on-line and can see how the pins are numbered but there are no pin numbers on the drawing Brumateur supplied. Also, where do the two capacitors hook-up? I also realized I don't have the resistors today.

I can buy a soldering iron and a pack of assorted resistors from Radioshack this pay-day. But I'm not a Engineer, can anyone help?
 
Vcc - pin 14
GND - pin 7

All four elements inside this IC are equal and both inputs at each element are equal as well. So you can chose any 3 elements.
For example input pins on left side of diagram from top to bottom 1,2 4,5 9,10. Corresponded outputs on right side (from top to bottom) - 3,6,8

I did check a datasheet for Mypin - it said SSR output is 24Volts. So I'd recommend to swap 1K and 4.7K resister. Ie use 4.7K instead 1K and 1K instead 4.7k.
 
Brumateur said:
Vcc - pin 14
GND - pin 7

All four elements inside this IC are equal and both inputs at each element are equal as well. So you can chose any 3 elements.
For example input pins on left side of diagram from top to bottom 1,2 4,5 9,10. Corresponded outputs on right side (from top to bottom) - 3,6,8

I did check a datasheet for Mypin - it said SSR output is 24Volts. So I'd recommend to swap 1K and 4.7K resister. Ie use 4.7K instead 1K and 1K instead 4.7k.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I figured out on-line which pin is power and which pin is ground. I also saw the on-line drawings of the inside of the IC but I did not know if some elements worked different or were better than others.

Since you don't have capacitors in your drawing do they wire in between the power and ground pins? The capacitors are two small disks with leads coming out close together from the edge.
 
Yes install one near the IC and connect it between Vcc and ground.
When you turn on your setup first time - use incandescent lampinstead of heater. This way you can easily verify how does it work without the risk of overloading.
 
I finally wired up the part, I followed Brumateur instructions, and it does not work. A friend of mine brought his meter over and did some measuring last night and said as far as he can tell it's wired right and I blew the part up! If the IC is that sensitive then I don't want it!

I emailed the guy at www.kegkits.com again last night. He responded this morning stating he's just using a relay with a 24V coil for the interlock. To me a relay seems like a better solution than a power supply and resistors and capacitors and blowing up another part. Does anyone have an idea how to do this with just a relay? Which relay would I use?
 
It's very sad to hear this news. To compensate your loss I can build.you an interlock circuit for free if you pay me just $10 for shipping and handling.
 
Brumateur said:
It's very sad to hear this news. To compensate your loss I can build.you an interlock circuit for free if you pay me just $10 for shipping and handling.
Click to expand...

That's OK, my friend looked closer at my circuit and he says I reversed the resistors and put too much voltage on the IC. I was really PISSED when I posted the other day and now I'm just mad at myself for wiring it wrong. He said that if I will buy another IC on Friday he will help me wire it this weekend. He also said that he should be able to put the interlock circuit inside one of my PIDs which would be really cool!
 
My buddy came over last night. He made a quick drawing of how everything is hooked up then we took out the PID running my mash tun.

I watched while he worked - he took off the PID cover then he made some measurements with power connected through two alligator clips. Then he turned off power and wired everything up. The IC is kind of floating inside the PID close to the end with the screws and it's all taped up with electrical tape. Also he cut-off all the IC legs but the ones he needed and he cut those ones short.

After he was done with that one he had to pull the other PID out because he had to connect the two together with a wire. He also said last night that maybe I did not blow up the first part, maybe the internal voltage between the two PIDs blew up the part? Anyways he said that connecting the two together would make sure it did not happen again.

Now I have one black wire running from inside the hot liquor tank PID to inside the mash tun PID - that's the wire that connects them together. The red SSR wire from the hot liquor tank PID runs to inside the mash tun PID. A new red SSR wire runs from inside the mash tun PID to the + screw on my hot liquor tank SSR. He did not use the power supply or capacitors because he did not need them but he did use two resistors.

I started up the mash tun with enough water to keep the RIMS tube full and started up the hot liquor tank with enough water to cover the element and it works!!!!!

I bumped up the hot liquor tank temperature to 250 to make sure it would boil then I watched the PIDs and I watched the water in my hot liquor tank in the mirror I have mounted above the tank. Both PIDs stay on but when the red mash PID light comes on the hot liquor tank boil stops.
 
kenh said:
My buddy came over last night. He made a quick drawing of how everything is hooked up then we took out the PID running my mash tun.

I watched while he worked - he took off the PID cover then he made some measurements with power connected through two alligator clips. Then he turned off power and wired everything up. The IC is kind of floating inside the PID close to the end with the screws and it's all taped up with electrical tape. Also he cut-off all the IC legs but the ones he needed and he cut those ones short.

After he was done with that one he had to pull the other PID out because he had to connect the two together with a wire. He also said last night that maybe I did not blow up the first part, maybe the internal voltage between the two PIDs blew up the part? Anyways he said that connecting the two together would make sure it did not happen again.

Now I have one black wire running from inside the hot liquor tank PID to inside the mash tun PID - that's the wire that connects them together. The red SSR wire from the hot liquor tank PID runs to inside the mash tun PID. A new red SSR wire runs from inside the mash tun PID to the + screw on my hot liquor tank SSR. He did not use the power supply or capacitors because he did not need them but he did use two resistors.

I started up the mash tun with enough water to keep the RIMS tube full and started up the hot liquor tank with enough water to cover the element and it works!!!!!

I bumped up the hot liquor tank temperature to 250 to make sure it would boil then I watched the PIDs and I watched the water in my hot liquor tank in the mirror I have mounted above the tank. Both PIDs stay on but when the red mash PID light comes on the hot liquor tank boil stops.
Click to expand...

Also, I emailed the guys at www.kegkits.com & let them know that my interlock works without a relay!
 
Brumateur said:
Glad to hear that everything works as expected. Have your friend did any modification to schematic I suggested?
Click to expand...

I gave him a printout of your schematic and he studied it, but I really don't know. He's interested in brewing beer and he's supposed to come over next time I brew a batch. I'll ask him then.

Also he brought over his own solder and soldering iron. He told me that my solder is for plumbing work and should not be used on eletronic parts. The tip of his iron is tiny compared to my solderng gun. I can see why I was having trouble soldering to my first IC - I kept shorting the legs together.
 

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