how to use belgian yeast for dummies!!

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lpdb185

lpdb185

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can some of you experts help me with my belgians? i've tried 4 or 5 recipes and all of them were very disappointing. i made a tripel a few months ago and i'm going to let it age for at least 9-10 months before i decide on it. it doesn't taste too promising so far though.

so i have read about ramping up the temps with belgian yeasts and i tried this on my last recipe. what i'm needing, however, is for someone to REALLY break down the basic steps of doing that. i use a freezer with a 2stage ranco for cooling and heating. based on what i read here, i attach the probe to the fermenter, cover it with a few layers of bubble wrap, and tape it down so the probe reads wort temp instead of ambient. so when i tried the "ramping up method", i set my controller to ~66F (IIRC) for 2-3 days and then ramped it up 1-2 degrees every day until reaching ~76-78F. but after tasting this tripel, i think that was the incorrect method because it tastes just as bad as my last few attempts. do i need to let the probe read/control ambient temp and ramp that up? am i supposed to set and leave the ambient temp ~66F and let the yeast warm up on their own, monitoring wort temp with a seperate thermometer?
can someone explain the basic methods you use for fermenting belgians, and REALLY dumb it down for me please?
 
What are the qualities you find disappointing? Underattenuation? What's your final gravity?

Let it ramp itself up. I typically pitch a healthy starter of Belgian yeast into well-oxygenated wort at 65F. At the first sign of activity I shut off the temperature controller and let the fermentation heat up to whatever it wants to. Usually it will get into the mid-upper 70s.

I get full attenuation within 3-4 weeks - Belgian yeast can be slow especially at the end of the ferment. Sometimes agitating the carboy can wring the last few gravity points out.

Maybe you're overheating the fermenter? Are the flaws characteristic of high fermentation temperature (overly fruity, headaches, etc)?

Finally, are you brewing all grain or extract? It can be hard to get authentic Belgians out of extract in my experience. Too many unfermentables = too sweet, too full-bodied.
 
I agree with the previous poster about the all grain or extract, having the ability to mash low and add sugar to dry it out really makes a big difference.

I have used Wyeast 3787 a lot and like to keep it in the mid 60's for the first few days, then let it ramp up to house ambient (live in Florida, so mid to high 70's) and this gives it some nice esters. I also just did a light Belgian Honey Ale with 1214 and the fruitiness of the yeast matched well with the honey. Not sure what yeast the OP was using, but I don't think you really need to be too anal with Belgian yeasts, just keep them cool for a couple of days then let them warm up.
 
i do all-grain and most of the recipes were with wlp550, the other i can't recall right now. all my OGs and FGs, attenuation, etc. were pretty much dead on. that's why i'm pretty sure it the yeast. i'm not sure how to describe the bad flavors, but my best description would be like a highly concentrated yeasty/banana/something i can't describe taste. the last batch sat in bottles for over a year in hopes that it would age out, but it tasted just as bad as first one and was another dumper. i just hate that i have to spend $40-50 a pop and keep turning out disappointing brews in order to figure it out.

SickTransitMundus said:
Let it ramp itself up. I typically pitch a healthy starter of Belgian yeast into well-oxygenated wort at 65F. At the first sign of activity I shut off the temperature controller and let the fermentation heat up to whatever it wants to. Usually it will get into the mid-upper 70s.
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with my setup, would this mean i should put the probe on the fermenter to hold the wort at ~65F for the first 3-4 days, then take the probe off the fermenter and let it hold the ambient temp at ~65? do you bump up the ambient temp or hold it in the mid sixties and let the yeast warm itsself up? i know i probably sound pretty ignorant, but i'm at the end of my rope. all i want is to make one decent tripel.
 
I've seen another thread about a quad where the yeast was pitched at 65 F, then they wrapped a towel around the fermenter and just let it sit in ambient air (read: *not in fridge*) for a few days. Their ferm temps got up to low 80s, which should be fine for Belgian yeast and will really help bring out them thar Belgian esters... I think they gradually cooled it back down over the next week, back to low 70s.
 
Sounds like you may be ramping the temp up too soon. If you are just basing your method on pitch, wait 2 or 3 days, then raise temp you could be raising it prematurely (maybe it took a day or so to get fermenting fully). For my belgians I pitch it and let it ferment at the low temperature range of the yeast till fermentation begins to slow and then raise the temperature.

Banana flavors are not out of style in Belgians. However, if it's over the top banana, that would indicate too high of fermentation temperatures.
 
I agree with the others that you are cranking it up too soon if it's estery. Keep it at 65* for a week next time.

I use a single stage Ranco with a chest freezer.

I have the probe dangling in the air inside the freezer. What I do is set the Ranco 3 degrees lower than my desired temp, and set a 3 degree differential. For example I'm finishing up a couple ales at 68* now so my Ranco is set to 65* with 3* differential.

In reality the display shows the ambient temps range from 63 to 69, but the fermentation bucket stays a constant 67-68*.

When you position the probe to measure the wort temp, the Ranco (freezer) will not kick in until your wort temp moves up a degree or two, and it will take several minutes to cool the wort back down. I can imagine in the early stages of fermentation the temps could rise pretty quick.
 
tesilential said:
I agree with the others that you are cranking it up too soon if it's estery. Keep it at 65* for a week next time.

I use a single stage Ranco with a chest freezer.

I have the probe dangling in the air inside the freezer. What I do is set the Ranco 3 degrees lower than my desired temp, and set a 3 degree differential. For example I'm finishing up a couple ales at 68* now so my Ranco is set to 65* with 3* differential.

In reality the display shows the ambient temps range from 63 to 69, but the fermentation bucket stays a constant 67-68*.

When you position the probe to measure the wort temp, the Ranco (freezer) will not kick in until your wort temp moves up a degree or two, and it will take several minutes to cool the wort back down. I can imagine in the early stages of fermentation the temps could rise pretty quick.
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just to be clear, you're saying to keep the ambient temp at 65 and let the wort ramp up on its own and not try to keep the wort at 65? or are you saying i need to keep the wort at 65 until fermentation starts to slow, then bump the ambient temp up to keep it going?
 
lpdb185 said:
just to be clear, you're saying to keep the ambient temp at 65 and let the wort ramp up on its own and not try to keep the wort at 65? or are you saying i need to keep the wort at 65 until fermentation starts to slow, then bump the ambient temp up to keep it going?
Click to expand...

I wasn't giving advice on fermenting Belgians, as I've never brewed one. My advice was how to best use your Ranco and freezer to keep your wort temp stable.

I have had problems with off flavors from high yeast temps, so I would pitch at 60, let it rise to 65, and keep it there. Keep in mind you should be measuring the true temp of the wort with a separate thermometer or a temp strip until you get your setup dialed in.
 
It sounds like you're getting off-flavors characteristic of overly hot fermentation. After you see fermentation begin, shut off all temp control. Let it rise and fall naturally. When you're heating the ferment to the high 70s, the liquid temp is probably in the low 80s. I think that step is causing your problems.

Also, artificially cooling a Belgian fermentation will stop the yeast dead. Especially with WY3787, probably with WL550 as well. Attempting to maintain a constant 65 degree temp after fermentation stops will leave you with a grossly underattenuated brew.
 
You're going to get a different answer from everyone here. That said, it might be worth trying out the hands-off approach to see if it works for you (I like it, personally). Basically, you'll pitch at roughly 64-65F in a dark space (hopefully not too enclosed) at the same ambient temp. Then forget about it for a couple weeks. Check gravity to make sure it's doing well, after things die down a bit. This hands off approach is great because it's super easy, and still turns out great beers. Ron Jeffries of Jolly Pumpkin uses this method and recommends it for WLP550. It seems to work well for 3787 for me, as well.
 
GuldTuborg said:
You're going to get a different answer from everyone here. That said, it might be worth trying out the hands-off approach to see if it works for you (I like it, personally). Basically, you'll pitch at roughly 64-65F in a dark space (hopefully not too enclosed) at the same ambient temp. Then forget about it for a couple weeks. Check gravity to make sure it's doing well, after things die down a bit. This hands off approach is great because it's super easy, and still turns out great beers. Ron Jeffries of Jolly Pumpkin uses this method and recommends it for WLP550. It seems to work well for 3787 for me, as well.
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Yep that is what I do, and that is the way Westmalle handles the beast that is 3787. I try not to let it get over 70F, and if it happens it is only after 80% of the fermentation is complete. I think too many people believe that super high temps for belgian beers mean more complexity, esters, etc. This is not always true. These yeast have all sorts of desirable flavors that come from the lower fermentation temptrature ranges, such as pitching at 64F. Try the next one like this. Pitch a large healthy starter into 64F wort and let it ramp up naturally to 68-69F and then hold it there. This has always worked for me and leaves me with a much more complex beer ester wise without all the harsh flavors than just letting it go hog wild.
 
I dont agree with the previous advice of dangling the probe just anywhere. You're doing it fine by attaching it to the bucket and putting some wrap over that.

Now, I think that the problem has been determined (too high ferm temps too early) and you will see a lot of benefit from controlling the temp early on. I like to pitch at 66-ish, then let it rise to 68 and hold there for most of fermentation. As soon as the temp drops (ie. fermentation is slowing) I will then ramp it up to the low- to mid-70s and hold it there for as long as I can (until the next batch needs the fridge). I've only used 3787, so I cant say that this will work for all strains, but this is my approach.


Good luck
 
Forgive the stupid "is it plugged in" question, but do you like belgians? I like one out of five commercial tripels and brewed mine to the style I prefer. Granted I missed so to me mine is just "Meh". What is lacking? All my beers are free range (im a yeast geek) and I usually let em roll without temp control... everyone who's had them says they're over the top belgian-y. Perfect. :)
 
jtakacs said:
Forgive the stupid "is it plugged in" question, but do you like belgians? I like one out of five commercial tripels and brewed mine to the style I prefer. Granted I missed so to me mine is just "Meh". What is lacking? All my beers are free range (im a yeast geek) and I usually let em roll without temp control... everyone who's had them says they're over the top belgian-y. Perfect. :)
Click to expand...

I LOVE BELGIANS! tripels, dubbels, quads, belgian ipa, bdsa, etc. the only ones i've had so far that i didn't care for were tripel karmeliet and de koninck. in fact, tripels and quads were the impetus for my homebrewing about two years ago. since i can't get any of them in mississippi, i decided to start brewing my own; i have failed.

thanks for all the info everyone. i previously read to get the yeast temps up to the high 70's to low 80's, but i guess i missed the part about doing that late in the fermentation. i'll try starting it around 65-66, hopefully that'll at least turn out a drinkable batch, LOL. i think i'm gonna try a tripel ipa, since the hops might help me out some. thanks!
 
From WLP550 I tend to get banana/hay/straw flavours, not over powering at all.

Used it twice now, one on a Saison which turned out AMAZING, one on a dubbel which I've just bottled (samples taste fine so far, too much star anise though I think).

I let it do what it wants temp-wise. The saison fermentation was pretty vigorous but not overly hot from the vial. The dubbel was washed yeast in a starter with nutrient, that thing went nuts and got close to 80F, IIRC 13-14F above ambient at its peak. Good job blow off tube was hooked up.
 
This is the super cheap way I do things. I use a 10g keg to ferment in and when do a Belgian that I will want higher than ambient temp at some point, I put it in of the 20gallon plastic party tubs filled with water. I let the fermentation go on it's own until after high krausen. Then I use a submersible aquarium heater and check water/wort temp with my thermapen (actually need to get a new one as the current is on a recall). Between my water heater, next to zero insulation from the SS, and my thermapen I have fairly precise temp control. I did a tripel this winter and just recently a saison this way and they turned out great.
 
Have you checked out the Jamil shows on the Belgian beers that you like to brew? It seems like everyone on here has their own style of doing things. I use Jamil's method of pitching rate and temp control. Hard to argue with a Ninkasi winner.

I just brewed a dubbel using wlp530. Pitched at 64F and raised it one degree per day after the second, going up to 70F. I also use a Ranco dual stage with a fridge and fermwrap.

Last time I did a dubbel, I took a pro brewer's advice who had recently made a dubbel and fermented it from 70-75F with WLP500. The thing turned out like rocket fuel and the ester profile was horrible and sharp. Of course the head pressure on a 300bbl fermentor allows him to get away with this temp where we cannot.

I would try Jamil's method to a "T" and see if that improves your beer and then you can tweak from there.
 
MachineShopBrewing said:
Last time I did a dubbel, I took a pro brewer's advice who had recently made a dubbel and fermented it from 70-75F with WLP500. The thing turned out like rocket fuel and the ester profile was horrible and sharp. Of course the head pressure on a 300bbl fermentor allows him to get away with this temp where we cannot.
Click to expand...


I just noticed that in "Brewing Classic Styles" Jamil doesn't seem to recommend WLP500 (except for 1 brew) even though for the same brew he recommends the Wyeast Trappist High Gravity yeast, which should be the equivalent to WLP500. Instead, he tends to recommend WLP530 or an alternative yeast. I wonder if there is something to this. I just brewed an abbey with WLP500 and I'm not that happy with it. Although, after 2 months in the bottle it is getting better. I'm going to start looking at the Wyeast Trappist yeast next time and see if there is much of a difference between the two.
 
Wyeast High Gravity is 3787, which is supposedly the same strain as WLP530. Likewise, WY1214 and WLP500 are the same strain.
 
That's a good point also sjbeerman.

To the OP~ Have you tried using some different yeasts at all? Try the WLP530 and see how you like that. WLP550 is really phenolic and spicy according to the White Labs site. The 530 may be more what you are looking for.
 
GuldTuborg said:
Wyeast High Gravity is 3787, which is supposedly the same strain as WLP530. Likewise, WY1214 and WLP500 are the same strain.
Click to expand...

Interesting...You would think 550 would be the same as 1214 based on the name. Some sources say that 500 is equivalent to 3787, but JZ seems to state otherwise..:confused:
 
I remembered people saying that the big belgian brewers underpitch on purpose. I pitched a half quart of slurry from a belgian that had reached 13% figuring the yeast would be too stressed to complete fermentation to leave some residual sugar. It did ferment out and was also one of the best belgians I have made yet.
 
sjbeerman said:
Interesting...You would think 550 would be the same as 1214 based on the name. Some sources say that 500 is equivalent to 3787, but JZ seems to state otherwise..:confused:
Click to expand...

They call those strains whatever they like. There isn't anything about the names that will indicate which strains have the same origins.

The list on mrmalty has been compiled by Kristen England (originally, at least), and while I wouldn't consider it gospel truth, she got a lot of the information which influenced drafting that list while sharing beers with some of the big wigs at Wyeast. It ought to be mostly correct, at any rate.
 
jtejedor said:
I remembered people saying that the big belgian brewers underpitch on purpose.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's really the right way to think about it. They have worked out the optimal pitching rates for their yeast, using their systems, to get the properties in the finished beer that they want. So, you could say whatever they do pitch is the optimal rate (and it might be a different rate for someone else using different yeast, process, end result, etc.). What rate may work for you is something you need to figure out. Bear in mind, though, that they usually pitch very healthy colonies of yeast, so the actual numbers may appear smaller, but the number of healthy cells may be the same.
 
MachineShopBrewing said:
That's a good point also sjbeerman.

To the OP~ Have you tried using some different yeasts at all? Try the WLP530 and see how you like that. WLP550 is really phenolic and spicy according to the White Labs site. The 530 may be more what you are looking for.
Click to expand...

well, i did brew a belgian wit and it turned out too sulfury for me, although everyone else thought it was great. that had to do with taking it off the yeast too early i believe. i've got 4 kits coming tomorrow from AHS. one is a quad and one is a tripel ipa (others are IIPA and brown ale). i started to get them both with 3787, but i got wlp500 since i've never used wyeast packs. after reading the above posts, i wish i would have gotten the wyeast 3787, LOL. i'm gonna brew them back to back and ferment them together. my plan is:

mash 75min@150F, brew, chill, pitch @ 66F, hold wort @ 66F for 3 days, then let exothermic activity take over, keeping ambient temp ~70F. as fermentation slows, i'll bump up the ambient temp to keep it going. leave in primary for a minimum of 1 month before kegging.

anybody see a problem with this or think i need to adjust something?
 
lpdb185 said:
can some of you experts help me with my belgians? i've tried 4 or 5 recipes and all of them were very disappointing. i made a tripel a few months ago and i'm going to let it age for at least 9-10 months before i decide on it. it doesn't taste too promising so far though.

so i have read about ramping up the temps with belgian yeasts and i tried this on my last recipe. what i'm needing, however, is for someone to REALLY break down the basic steps of doing that. i use a freezer with a 2stage ranco for cooling and heating. based on what i read here, i attach the probe to the fermenter, cover it with a few layers of bubble wrap, and tape it down so the probe reads wort temp instead of ambient. so when i tried the "ramping up method", i set my controller to ~66F (IIRC) for 2-3 days and then ramped it up 1-2 degrees every day until reaching ~76-78F. but after tasting this tripel, i think that was the incorrect method because it tastes just as bad as my last few attempts. do i need to let the probe read/control ambient temp and ramp that up? am i supposed to set and leave the ambient temp ~66F and let the yeast warm up on their own, monitoring wort temp with a seperate thermometer?
can someone explain the basic methods you use for fermenting belgians, and REALLY dumb it down for me please?
Click to expand...

I am no expert on the practice. I, myself, have been reading all that I can to get a grip on the style and the techniques that are typical. Designing Great Beers, Brewing Classic Styles, Brew Like a Monk...these have all been very helpful to my understanding of these beers, technically.

Brew Like a Monk (Stan Hieronymus) has been a particularly interesting read for me. Mainly because Hieronymus interviews the monks from most of the monasteries producing Trappist beer today, and their respective brewers. They shed light on many techniques that are used. Fermentation temperature variation being one of many. The results of which, I am sure, would vary considerably depending on yeast strain being utilized.

That being said, mash temperatures also seem to play a key role in a complex process. Here are a few quotes from Hieronymus after discussions with Orval's brewer (Jean-Marie Rock) as well as others involved in Orval's brewing process that might be interesting for you:

Orval mashes at 145F (63C) for a "variable" time, and then boosts the temperature to 162F (72C) for 20 minutes. Lautering lasts for about 3 hours. Brewers add Styrian Goldings and Hallertau hops from Slovenia and Bavaria 20 minutes into a 60 minute boil. The brewery used whole flowers in the kettle into the 1990s before shifting to a combination of hop extract and pellets. Liquid candi sugar provides 16 to 17% of fermentables.
Click to expand...

By turning to cylindro-conical tanks, Orval shortened primary fermentation from five days to four. Fermentation begins at 57F (14C) and may rise to 72F (22C) during the four days.
Click to expand...

Secondary fermentation takes place at 59F (15C) in horizontal tanks for three weeks. The beer is dry-hopped with flowers. These have varied over the years, as Rock prefers Styrian Goldings, while his predecessor used East Kent Goldings. More important, Orval adds a second yeast "of the area." The yeast includes multiple strains, including one of Brettanomyces.
Click to expand...

Then, of course, there is refermentation that takes place in the bottles as the beer is bottle-conditioned. I think the key point of most of these beers is that the brewers really know their yeast (and they are several strains). Fermentation temperatures would certainly need modification of different strains of yeast were used in your recipes.

I know this doesn't dumb the process down, nor give you fail-safe techniques for brewing great Belgian beer. But I am not certain of any dumbed-down technique is going to produce the same level of complexity that is typical of the styles you are looking to duplicate. But again, I am not an expert. Hope some of this information is helpful.

Edit: Typos
 
ThickHead said:
I am no expert on the practice. I, myself, have been reading all that I can to get a grip on the style and the techniques that are typical. Designing Great Beers, Brewing Classic Styles, Brew Like a Monk...these have all been very helpful to my understanding of these beers, technically.

Brew Like a Monk (Stan Hieronymus) has been a particularly interesting read for me. Mainly because Hieronymus interviews the monks from most of the monasteries producing Trappist beer today, and their respective brewers. They shed light on many techniques that are used. Fermentation temperature variation being one of many. The results of which, I am sure, would vary considerably depending on yeast strain being utilized.

That being said, mash temperatures also seem to play a key role in a complex process. Here are a few quotes from Hieronymus after discussions with Orval's brewer (Jean-Marie Rock) as well as others involved in Orval's brewing process that might be interesting for you:







Then, of course, there is refermentation that takes place in the bottles as the beer is bottle-conditioned. I think the key point of most of these beers is that the brewers really know their yeast (and they are several strains). Fermentation temperatures would certainly need modification of different strains of yeast were used in your recipes.

I know this doesn't dumb the process down, nor give you fail-safe techniques for brewing great Belgian beer. But I am not certain of any dumbed-down technique is going to produce the same level of complexity that is typical of the styles you are looking to duplicate. But again, I am not expert. Hope some of this information is helpful.

Edit: Typos
Click to expand...

i've actually got BLAM on order. but honestly, i'm not looking to make a perfect or even great belgian. for now, i'm just wanting to make something that i can enjoy drinking and not have to pour it out like the others i've made.
 

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