Brett Infection on my ESB... Does this mean?

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I doubt it's the gnats causing that type of infection, although they do have their own issues.

My bet would be on the grain crushing. In any case, I hope you get it figured out. I had three batches in a row that developed infections in the bottle and it's super frustrating. Pbw'd everything and replaced all plastic components. I haven't had an issue since (knock on wood).
 
theck said:
I was reading that plastic is more susceptible to infections and once it's in it's very hard to remove.
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this is not true. on these forums you will find tons of infections in glass carboys and stainless conicals. a thread like this can go on for a long time and the exact cause of an infection not be found just through guesses. good sanitation practices will avoid these issues regardless the fermentor material.
 
theck said:
Immersion chiller... I spray it with starsan before using when using the SS hop spider or boil 15-20 mins when not.

Not sure if it's typical but the infection seems to come on after reg fermentation. I did move the buckets but no more than I have done in the past with no ill effects.
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Let's try this, let's run through your entire process of sanitization, cooling, etc, include info like where you are storing the beer, what is nearby and all that sort of info. I've already found one immediate flaw with your sanitization process, starsan (and most/all no rinse sanitizers) require you to immerse your equipment in it for at least one full minute (read the instructions and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about); anything less means you haven't properly sanitized your equipment. A quick spray of sanitizer won't work well enough, nor will a boil.
 
eastoak said:
this is not true. on these forums you will find tons of infections in glass carboys and stainless conicals. a thread like this can go on for a long time and the exact cause of an infection not be found just through guesses. good sanitation practices will avoid these issues regardless the fermentor material.
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I thought it was due to plastic and scratches... it's odd I am getting this because I spray everything possible with starsan, before and after, and been more anal about it recently than in the past. Back when I started I didn't even sanitize things really just cleaned them with soap and water. Wondering if maybe my starsan is too old and not good now? It's ph is still under 3 yet cloudy, which is ok. Guess it can be everything and anything at this point ha... cleaning and trying again is the only way to bust it. I'll move to glass anyhow, I've been meaning to regardless... I only open the buckets to check how it's going and sometimes get the gravity, but if I can see though it then no need to even bother opening until I need to when I keg. Most of my beers stay in the fermenter for 4-10 weeks depending on style.
 
Talgrath said:
Let's try this, let's run through your entire process of sanitization, cooling, etc, include info like where you are storing the beer, what is nearby and all that sort of info. I've already found one immediate flaw with your sanitization process, starsan (and most/all no rinse sanitizers) require you to immerse your equipment in it for at least one full minute (read the instructions and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about); anything less means you haven't properly sanitized your equipment. A quick spray of sanitizer won't work well enough, nor will a boil.
Click to expand...

I have a very good spray bottle, it's coats it completely and then some and I'm not shy about using it? I do soak when kegging. so...

Grain, fermenters, equipment in the same room in basement... I crush same area as well. All grain is in buckets with gamma lids. The only thing I leave outside is the keggle and IC.

Process:
1. Fill alum turkey fryer with mash water
2. crush grain in fermenter bucket
3. add water to tun, then grain, stir etc...
4. Fill alum turkey fryer with sparge water and wait 60 mins, drain tun
5. add sparge water
6. take bucket outside and pour into keggle, usually 2+ gallons
7. drain tun again... take outside pour, bring to boil. Usually keep stove in garage just behind the garage door in case I need to close it.
8. add hops, etc... 60 mins.
9. 15 mins before finish, spray off IC and get it ready... add ice/water to bucket for first coil feeding to the IC. Wash and spray out bucket with starsan. Spray hose from keggle to bucket with starsan. Starsan off lid and airlock in basement. starsan what my yeast is in, either starter flask or sometimes I pitch right from collected jars from previous brews.
9. remove SS hop spider
10. add IC, turn on water hose, cool to 65...
11. carry down to basement, spray lid again, spoon (if using slurry) and yeast container, add yeast, cover with lid... add little crushed campden into airlock, add distilled water into airlock after.
12. let it sit for 2-3 weeks
13. spray off lid, hands, arms, etc... open check if all good close... if I do a gravity reading spray inside and out of the thief then put into bucket then put lid back on... usually drink what's in thief and dump rest if any... clean and then starsan it when done.
14. 4-10 weeks when keg kicks on keezer I fill keg with starsan, shake, spray off auto siphon in and out, and siphon a bit back into keg. Usually that's by the dryer which is in another room. Empty keg of starsan.
15. get bucket of beer, put on top of dryer and siphon it into the keg.
16. put keg into keezer, co2 on check for leaks... etc....
17. starsan spoon, mason jars and lids, usually 2 quarts... spoon yeast into jars, close lids, put into fridge.
18. green scrub out the bucket, siphon, airlock, lid, etc clean, spray in/out with starsan, put upside down on ground and couple days put it back on shelf until next time.

My usual process ha...
 
poptarts said:
yea i defiantly wouldn't keep grain in my fermentation bucket.
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I just crush it into it then pour into the tun, clean with green scrubby and sanitize. Never had an issue till now? Maybe I got lucky? ha... easy to not do that any longer, next brew I'll not do it.
 
Seems like as soon as I open the bucket for the check it becomes infected. The saison and pale are 2 weeks apart in brewing schedule but both had the same look with the infection. I opened both at the same time.
 
theck said:
I have a very good spray bottle, it's coats it completely and then some and I'm not shy about using it? I do soak when kegging. so...

Grain, fermenters, equipment in the same room in basement... I crush same area as well. All grain is in buckets with gamma lids. The only thing I leave outside is the keggle and IC.

Process:
1. Fill alum turkey fryer with mash water
2. crush grain in fermenter bucket
3. add water to tun, then grain, stir etc...
4. Fill alum turkey fryer with sparge water and wait 60 mins, drain tun
5. add sparge water
6. take bucket outside and pour into keggle, usually 2+ gallons
7. drain tun again... take outside pour, bring to boil. Usually keep stove in garage just behind the garage door in case I need to close it.
8. add hops, etc... 60 mins.
9. 15 mins before finish, spray off IC and get it ready... add ice/water to bucket for first coil feeding to the IC. Wash and spray out bucket with starsan. Spray hose from keggle to bucket with starsan. Starsan off lid and airlock in basement. starsan what my yeast is in, either starter flask or sometimes I pitch right from collected jars from previous brews.
9. remove SS hop spider
10. add IC, turn on water hose, cool to 65...
11. carry down to basement, spray lid again, spoon (if using slurry) and yeast container, add yeast, cover with lid... add little crushed campden into airlock, add distilled water into airlock after.
12. let it sit for 2-3 weeks
13. spray off lid, hands, arms, etc... open check if all good close... if I do a gravity reading spray inside and out of the thief then put into bucket then put lid back on... usually drink what's in thief and dump rest if any... clean and then starsan it when done.
14. 4-10 weeks when keg kicks on keezer I fill keg with starsan, shake, spray off auto siphon in and out, and siphon a bit back into keg. Usually that's by the dryer which is in another room. Empty keg of starsan.
15. get bucket of beer, put on top of dryer and siphon it into the keg.
16. put keg into keezer, co2 on check for leaks... etc....
17. starsan spoon, mason jars and lids, usually 2 quarts... spoon yeast into jars, close lids, put into fridge.
18. green scrub out the bucket, siphon, airlock, lid, etc clean, spray in/out with starsan, put upside down on ground and couple days put it back on shelf until next time.

My usual process ha...
Click to expand...

So yeah, there's your problem, you're just spraying the equipment. Everything that touches your wort or grain must be soaked for a minimum of one minute and preferably two minutes in sanitizer and then dried out as per the instructions on the sanitizer.

As far as plastic equipment, as long as you properly clean and sanitize the equipment it shouldn't be a problem. Anything that can scratch any of your equipment should not be used on it. For carboys or buckets that means soaking it in oxygen cleaner or brewery equipment cleaner and only rinsing it; for your metal equipment no metal pads or anything like that. Glass, metal or plastic can all become scratched and be a source of infection, it's just a matter of how you clean the equipment.
 
poptarts said:
how long have you been milling grain into your fermentation buckets?
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Since I went all grain... About 20 beers I would guess. I have been doing 1 in the keezer one in the bucket for the last maybe 10. I started keeping better records now on google cal. I did about 10 when I got back into brewing then went to all grain. Couple buckets are 15 years old when I started back up... those got replaced. When I sanitized back then we used a iodine soak. The local shop got me on starsan, told me to mix 5 gallons... Save in a keg, put into spray bottle when empty. I just pour to keg for example when I soak. They have been spraying for many years without issue, ??
 
Showed the picture to a local shop guy he was pretty certain it was Brett... Guess there is really no certain way to tell but what is the cause of a lacto infection? Doesn't that have more of a flatness, less bubbly?
 
Racking the pale tomorrow and kegging. Do all 4, if the 4th is infected, on the same tap. Just make it all sour stuff and buy new when I can get some cash.
 
I have committed a high crime of brewing - I have brewed a standard beer in a plastic fermentor that was previously used to ferment a lambic. And it came out clean. No bull!

DSorenson said:
I know that there is a general conception out there that equipment that has come into contact with infected beer is contaminated, but I am not so sure. I think proper cleaning should be sufficient. I had an apple cider go south on me with some unknown, unidentifiable, non-gunk-forming bug and I merely cleaned with Oxyfree and I was good to go. Never had a problem since.

Also, keep the brett infected ESB! Historically these pub beers were riddled with the stuff (also unintentionally). Brett itself merely adds a subtle tartness, not really that mouth puckering sour that you might be thinking of.
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Ok something interesting I added an oz of hops and one Campden crushed and sprinkled on top just to see what would happen. Check out the before and after. I read that IPAs where hop'd up in order to avoid spoilage, I'm not sure if I killed anything or helped but interesting that the infection was held at bay, or at least visually.

before-after.jpg
 
theck said:
I've been spraying for the last 30 beers why is it surfacing now?
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We're getting into the hotter temperatures in most parts of the country, which tends to make bacteria more active. It's also possible there was a change in the environment in which you're boiling or chilling the wort that isn't obvious; seasonal changes in air movement or simply a particular bacteria being "in season". Maybe you were simply lucky with your last thirty batches. What I will say is this: always follow sanitizer instructions or you're going to get problems like this, check your equipment for scratches and if it is scratched throw it out, avoiding cleaning with anything that might scratch your equipment (my rule of thumb is I don't use anything harsher than a paper towel). To be thorough, you mentioned earlier that your sanitizer looked weird, chuck and get new stuff if you're unsure of its effectiveness. Sanitize, sanitize and then sanitize some more, it's your only defense against infection and if you don't do it properly your equipment doesn't matter.
 
Quick update, just kegged my second soured beer... got a good sampling of it and it actually tasted great. When I opened the lid I wasn't sure how it was going to be since there was an off smell. Funny I can't remember which one it is, red or the esb once I get though this keg and finish the last sour I'll be replacing the lines, boiling the parts, etc... I switched to better bottles (got em for <$20 each), now I don't have to see how it's going by opening the lid. Question though, can I use my sour buckets to crush grain into ok? Or would that cause problems down the line, it's pre boil so I wouldn't expect any issues? Have 3 sour buckets and hate to just trash them (keeping one for future sours).

20140905_104534.jpg
 
No issues with pre-boil, your grain already has tons of lacto on it that is killed during the boil. If you are enjoying the flavor of whatever bug you caught, I'd keep a jar of the dregs for a future brew.

Sorry if this is pedantic, but since it seems you have a brett strain and not a lacto strain, your infected beers are not actually soured. Brett can add a slight tartness, but not a real sour flavor. For sourness you'd need lacto or pedio.

Good luck! I am pretty sure a yeast I bought last year from a small company was infected with brett, didn't notice until after I had bottled. Ended up with bottle bombs, one of which blew up right as I was cleaning up the previous bomb (glass embedded in the ceiling, I was lucky it was in the back row). Now I have added brett to at least 4 beers (drinking one now, delicious).
 
Good point I always use green scrubs... I'm keeping at least one bucket and might do another brew in it just to see what happens. That's if it turns out good when carbed in a couple weeks. I have one more infected bucket of beer (had 3 total) afterwards and can get another brew in and fermented while I drink that one. Who knows maybe I'll always have an infected one on tap.
 
Chrisbrewbeers said:
I am no expert but I would think something not mentioned is that a green scrubby is abrasive enough to cause scratches, I use microfiber towel.
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Yeah, that caught my attention as well.

I don't use anything more abrasive than my fingertips on my plastic fermenters.

Hot water pre-rinse, oxy soak, triple rinse.
 
my $0.02:

Scratched buckets from green scrubby + spraying Starsan (as opposed to soaking) + milling/storing grain in fermentation buckets = infection.

Use those for milling/storing (mark them with a permanent marker) and buy new buckets (or carboys) for fermenting, just give them a good PBW soak and they should be fine.
 
i know there is a strong belief that scratches from scrubbies or scratches in general lead to infections but i have not seen any evidence in my own brewing to support this belief. if it is just being cautious that's one thing but being certain that this is true is another. like many other people i have some pretty old, scratched buckets and have never had an infected beer. my 60 something year old neighbor gave me some of his scary looking buckets from when he brewed in the 80s and i used them as an experiment with no problem. souring bugs are not immune to soap or star san and if the bucket has been properly cleaned then any subsequent infection probably came from some other source. i fermented a lager in a plastic carboy that held a sour beer for almost 2 years. i kegged the sour washed the carboy as i was brewing and in went the lager. i wasn't sure what would happen but it did not go sour after 2 months so i can only conclude that the cleaning was effective in that case. the danger in offering this point of view is that someone may get an infection using a scratched bucket and conclude that i'm full of it :D
 
eastoak said:
i know there is a strong belief that scratches from scrubbies or scratches in general lead to infections but i have not seen any evidence in my own brewing to support this belief. if it is just being cautious that's one thing but being certain that this is true is another. like many other people i have some pretty old, scratched buckets and have never had an infected beer. my 60 something year old neighbor gave me some of his scary looking buckets from when he brewed in the 80s and i used them as an experiment with no problem. souring bugs are not immune to soap or star san and if the bucket has been properly cleaned then any subsequent infection probably came from some other source. i fermented a lager in a plastic carboy that held a sour beer for almost 2 years. i kegged the sour washed the carboy as i was brewing and in went the lager. i wasn't sure what would happen but it did not go sour after 2 months so i can only conclude that the cleaning was effective in that case. the danger in offering this point of view is that someone may get an infection using a scratched bucket and conclude that i'm full of it :D
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:rockin:

I've seen this argument before and I don't think you're full of it. It ultimately comes down to cleaning and sanitation methods. Swishing water around in a bucket is not cleaning, one needs a detergent for that and appropriate cleaning techniques, brush, sponge, soft scouring pad, etc.

But... scratches could harbor bacteria if not obliterated. So a smooth container is much easier to clean and sanitize.
 
Ok more interesting stuff here... just finished kegging my red ale. I brewed it before I discovered all the infected batches. So, it was done by milling the grain in the brew bucket, spraying starsan, etc etc... the only difference was that I decided not to open it to check gravity, etc... like I usually do. I let it sit with the top on until one of my kegs blew and no infection, turned out great. I think I got an infection then when I checked the other batches it carried over on my hands or ?? to the other batches when I checked them as well.
 

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