Importance of a "rolling boil"?

I'm slowly upgrading my brewing setup and I'm debating where my next move should be a propane burner/stand or if I should buy a mash tun instead. Currently when I all grain brew I've been doing small 2 gallon batches BIAB style. Now I want to start moving towards traditional all grain brewing and 5 gallon batches.

Trouble is my stovetops electric burner just doesn't put out enough heat to get what I would consider a "rolling" boil. If I do more than 3 gallons of liquid I get bubbles but never much more.

Last time I did boil for 5 gallons I took a temperature reading and my floating thermometer reads 211.6 at the top of the liquid, so we're close. But every recipe I read seems to mention you need a rolling boil specifically, it's just never been explained to me why.

211 is plenty sterile, so what else is happening by bringing out that rolling boil?

Basically I'm trying to figure out if I need to solve this issue first before I invest in a mash tun and suddenly need to deal with a 6 gallon boil. Or can I defer the burner purchase temporarily/indefinitely?

I do 6 gallon BIAB on my stove top. It's gas, though, and my 10g kettle sits over 2 burners. Tales awhile to get to a boil but it does get there.

You could always supplement your stove's heat with a heatsick. I'm thinking about it for my setup just to speed things up.

I think you can buy for around $40ish or build one for about half that. Lots of DIY plans for them here and elsewhere online.

Depending on how much you want to spend, you could get a propane burner and a mash tun. I bought a small turkey fryer stand for about $20, filled propane tank for about $40, and then made a mash tun from a $50 Gatorade cooler + $10 in parts.

I would go ahead and invest in the propane burner sooner rather than later especially if you're moving to all grain. A rolling boil is more necessary with all grain because the vigorous churning and bubbling out of steam removes DMS from the wort. If you don't have a good rolling action, then the DMS will not be removed as effectively and could contribute a vegetal, cooked corn flavor to the beer. This isn't as important with extract because DMS and it's precursors have largely been removed during the manufacturing process.

The rolling action also helps avoid scorching, and it will result in better hop utilization I believe (though that's probably not a very significant increase). And I think I've read something about the rolling action helping to precipitate out the hot break proteins more effectively. I could be wrong on that one though. The point is it mixes the wort up very well throughout the entire boil, which is a good thing.

Also, it will save you SO much time and frustration as opposed to trying to boil 6 gallons on the stove top.

You can get a burner for around $40-$50 on Amazon. Then a one time investment in a propane tank if you don't have one already.

If it's between the propane burner and a cooler mash tun, I would go with the burner and do BIAB. Then if you feel like it, you can save up for the mash tun later.

First, about the boil: its very important to keep a rolling boil so volatiles in the wort can be driven off. The one I'm familiar with is SMM, the DMS precursor. I'll let you Google that one if you're curious, but its an off flavor described as cooked corn. A rolling boil also helps precipitate out protein/phenol complexes that can cause problems with haze and flavor stability. Check out the brew strong podcast w Dr bamforth on haze for a really interesting discussion. Also a rolling boil increases the evaporation rate which allows you to increase mash/and or sparge water which can be good for efficiency, especially in big beers.

As for whether to go mash tun or propane, I vote propane. You can always do biab until you get a mash tun setup. Plus bigger batches are a more efficient use of time, which is probably the most expensive part of brewing.

I just switched from stove top to a burner ($50 for a Bayou Classic SP10 from Amazon) and I highly recommend it. I can heat 6 gallons to a rolling boil in minutes (well, OK, 15-20 minutes). Then I have to turn it almost all the way down to keep it at a rolling boil instead of geysering out of the pot. It's a huge time saver, as well as doing a great job boiling the wort.

jtratcliff said:

I do 6 gallon BIAB on my stove top. It's gas, though, and my 10g kettle sits over 2 burners. Tales awhile to get to a boil but it does get there.

You could always supplement your stove's heat with a heatsick. I'm thinking about it for my setup just to speed things up.

I think you can buy for around $40ish or build one for about half that. Lots of DIY plans for them here and elsewhere online.

Click to expand...

I had never even heard of this wizardry! I found DIY guide for building. Do you happen to know somewhere that sells them? My googling hasn't returned anything so far but I'm guessing "heat stick" is probably not the market name of the product.

For all grain you want a roll. The movement serves several purposes and, at the very least, will prevent scorching. I think the technical temp you need to hit for pasteurization is in the 180's but doing something like that will change your boil off, throws off how utilization etc.

jmccraney said:

First, about the boil: its very important to keep a rolling boil so volatiles in the wort can be driven off. The one I'm familiar with is SMM, the DMS precursor. I'll let you Google that one if you're curious, but its an off flavor described as cooked corn.

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Thank you for helping me quantify the off flavor all of my beers have... other people swear it's not there but it feels like all I can taste in some of my batches.

I've even had this occur in an extract batch though, although it was also partial grain, so maybe that introduces the same problems?

In any case my decision is settled, we'll solve the heat source issue first. Now the question is how.

Koda said:

Thank you for helping me quantify the off flavor all of my beers have... other people swear it's not there but it feels like all I can taste in some of my batches.

I've even had this occur in an extract batch though, although it was also partial grain, so maybe that introduces the same problems?

In any case my decision is settled, we'll solve the heat source issue first. Now the question is how.

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Haha, nice! Glad we could help with a problem we didn't even know about!

If you have space to use a propane burner outside (or a garage), I would definitely go that route. Heat sticks sound complicated, slightly dangerous, and not worth it. You could get a propane burner for the same price and I bet it would be more effective.

Yeah, i'm doing some digging on the heat sticks to see. I'm living in an apartment so the logistics of a propane burner, especially for the winter are a little challenging. But heat sticks have their own bag of worms.

One thought though would be that I could hook my heat stick to a STC temp controller and use it for pretty accurate step mashing.

you could go for an all out e-brew setup too. put a couple 1500 watt elements in the boil pot. only difficulty for an apartment is making sure you have (2) 15 A circuits to plug into.

3kw of direct heat will boil 5 gallons no problem.

you can probably find turkey fryers or burners along with 10 gallon coolers on clist. good luck.

Heat Stick construction:

http://lovebrewingcompany.com/brewing/diy/heatstick/

'da Kid

I'm gonna be that guy, and amend your post:

Minbari said:

you could go for an all out e-brew setup too. put a couple 1500 watt elements in the boil pot. only difficulty for an apartment is making sure you have (2) 15 A GFCI circuits to plug into.

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But yeah, when I saw the post initially, I was thinking this is the route I'd go if I was living in an apartment.

I've also been wondering about the benefits of a rolling boil as I am wanting to do 3 gallon BIAB batches on the stove top. I've been doing partial mash and extract up until now. My electric stove doesn't get as good a rolling boil as I think I need. I researched the heat stick and saw this one on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BDB4UG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
It's not terribly expensive, but $41 is $41. I'm still considering it, though.

EthanH said:

I'm gonna be that guy, and amend your post:



But yeah, when I saw the post initially, I was thinking this is the route I'd go if I was living in an apartment.

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ha ha, yes. but even in an apartment you can get an inline GFCI to use on something like this.

phyllobeddo said:

I've also been wondering about the benefits of a rolling boil as I am wanting to do 3 gallon BIAB batches on the stove top. I've been doing partial mash and extract up until now. My electric stove doesn't get as good a rolling boil as I think I need. I researched the heat stick and saw this one on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BDB4UG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
It's not terribly expensive, but $41 is $41. I'm still considering it, though.

Click to expand...

yeah I found that one too but it's only 1000 watts. So far I haven't been able to find a 1500 online to just buy prebuilt. 1000 might be enough though provided I was still using my stove-top burner as well.

I'm in the middle of a fermentation cooler build at the moment but maybe this will be the next DIY.

EthanH said:

I'm gonna be that guy, and amend your post:



But yeah, when I saw the post initially, I was thinking this is the route I'd go if I was living in an apartment.

Click to expand...

Yeah I've got a GFCI plug in the kitchen, two actually... but they're on the same circuit... fat lot of good that does me.

Here's a hands-on review of the one on Amazon:

http://www.homebrewfinds.com/2013/11/hands-on-1000-watt-heat-stick-with-temp.html

MoreBeer sells a similar unit for $65:
http://morebeer.com/products/electric-bucket-heater-1000w.html?a_aid=hbf?a_aid=hbf

Probably couldn't use it alone for boiling but could definitely supplement your stove.

If you want to boil with the heating element only, you'll need to build your own or install an element directly in the kettle.

As long as my wife doesn't see this, winter before last, I brought my propane burner into the kitchen, put an 18" x 18" piece of travertine tile under the burner. The tile was only slightly warm, and floor was as cool as anywhere else in the kitchen. Keep your eye on it, ALWAYS have a fire extinguisher close by, and crack at least one window. If the hood on your range isn't a fake/filtered one, you are in business. Oh, and by the way, look up "Zapap" tun on Google. It is a mash/vorlauf tun made from two 5 gallon buckets and a spigot. Add a couple of hundred small holes drilled in the inside bucket, a little reflectix or the equivalent to insulate the outside, and, for less than $20.00, you have a very functional 5 gallon tun.

EDIT: I am 100% with the turkey fryer re-purposing. For $20.00 plus tax, I got a 50k BTU burner and a 30 quart pot, they were on closeout. Buy a used one from CL, for about the same price and be just as good. I also have a 40qt alum. BK, w/o a valve, that I like real well. Had I done more research before purchasing my pot, I would have gone 15 gallon, as beers over 1.060 don't leave much headroom in a 30qt pot.

If you're boiling 7-8 gallons (full boil) for 5.5-6 gallon batches you could use the IC3500 Induction Burner. It's under $200, but you do need access to a 240V 20A dedicated circuit. I put one in my kitchen and use the burner for more than just brewing. I simply love it.

The only thing is, your kettle should be induction ready. If a magnet sticks to the bottom, you're set. If it doesn't it may still work depending on the stainless grade used. That thread has all the details.

I did a double batch, 13 gallon boil on it, but had some trouble obtaining a rolling boil without the lid being partially on. It seems to depend on the kettle shape, construction, and insulation around it. Simply, it needs a 1500W heat stick if you want to do 13 gallons.

You can build a cooler mash tun for under (<$30) with a cpvc manifold (<$10). Do a Google search for (rectangular) cooler mashtun.

I picked up parts at the hardware store tonight to make a 1500 watt 120v heat stick. I imagine I'll still need to supplement that with my stove burner but the two together should give me a nice healthy boil. I'm on a 20 amp circuit off my kitchen GFCI so I could have maybe pushed a 2000 watt element but it just felt a little iffy.

Total cost of materials put me at $42 so I didn't really save any money compare to buying that 1000 watt unit on Amazon, but since my DIY should give 1.5x the heat output I still come out ahead.

Yeah, from my heat stick researching it seems 1500W is the most you should do on a 15A circuit.

The 1000W amazon one would probably have worked, along with your stove. But now you get DIY cred! And you'll save a little more time getting to temps.

I'll probably go DIY for 1500W myself when I actually end up doing it. I'm not quite ready to move out of the kitchen but I could shorten my brew day considerably with faster heat-up.

jtratcliff said:

Probably couldn't use it alone for boiling but could definitely supplement your stove.

If you want to boil with the heating element only, you'll need to build your own or install an element directly in the kettle.

Click to expand...

So it would be fine to use the heat stick in the boil kettle while it's on the stove so as to improve the rolling boil?

jtratcliff said:

Yeah, from my heat stick researching it seems 1500W is the most you should do on a 15A circuit.

The 1000W amazon one would probably have worked, along with your stove. But now you get DIY cred! And you'll save a little more time getting to temps.

I'll probably go DIY for 1500W myself when I actually end up doing it. I'm not quite ready to move out of the kitchen but I could shorten my brew day considerably with faster heat-up.

Click to expand...

Yeah according to my breaker box the GFCI in my kitchen is a 20A circuit. I was reading a few places though that you should have at least 25A to run a 2000 watt element. There was some mixed messaging about that, some people felt 20A was sufficient. I decided to err on the side of caution, a single heat-stick wasn't going to get me off the stove-top either way so I decided not to push my luck.

phyllobeddo said:

So it would be fine to use the heat stick in the boil kettle while it's on the stove so as to improve the rolling boil?

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Yeah it should be fine, and in some ways I think heatstick + burner is probably better than 2 heat sticks. There are notes in several of the DIY guides not to let the heating element of 2 heat-sticks come into direct contact with each other.

This excerpt come from one of the guides I'm reviewing for my build:

"Heating elements generate an invisible, high-density plasma stream from their tips. It is best if you try not to allow the plasma streams to cross. Actually, the streams should NEVER cross. In fact, ALWAYS keep the tip's pointed in separate directions within the brew kettle or a thermal electric plasma reaction will occur resulting in the instant vaporization of your hard-earned, precious, sweet wort! (Just making sure you're still paying attention!) Seriously folks, while a heatstick works great - if built and used correctly for heating water, step mashing and boiling wort - like any power tool, please respect it as the potentially dangerous device it is and everyone will be able to relax, not worry, and brew MORE homebrew!" (http://www.cedarcreeknetworks.com/heatstick.htm)

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Koda said:

"Heating elements generate an invisible, high-density plasma stream from their tips. It is best if you try not to allow the plasma streams to cross. Actually, the streams should NEVER cross. In fact, ALWAYS keep the tip's pointed in separate directions within the brew kettle or a thermal electric plasma reaction will occur resulting in the instant vaporization of your hard-earned, precious, sweet wort!

Click to expand...

Did you get this quote from Ghostbusters?? I seem to remember Egon saying something similar to this.....

peterj said:

Did you get this quote from Ghostbusters?? I seem to remember Egon saying something similar to this.....

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Lol no, it came from where I linked but that is hilarious.

Maybe's it's BS, I have no knowledge of these matters. I have to just believe everything I read on the internet. #TupacLives!

Koda said:

Lol no, it came from where I linked but that is hilarious.

Maybe's it's BS, I have no knowledge of these matters. I have to just believe everything I read on the internet. #TupacLives!

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Haha, nice hashtag!

Yeah I don't know much about electric brewing or engineering either so that could very well be legit. It just sounded so similar to Ghostbusters!

DMS SUCKS.read how to brew...It's free online

phyllobeddo said:

So it would be fine to use the heat stick in the boil kettle while it's on the stove so as to improve the rolling boil?

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Not a problem. I use a heat stick in my electric kettle when I'm impatient.

She's not pretty, but she works. Can't wait to put this to the paces on some wort. I'm going to time a 6 gallon boil tonight and see how I do with this running and my over burner.

So I did my first boil test tonight - I was able to get 6.5 gallons of water from 145 F to boiling in 35 minutes. I was hoping to get it there in under 30 but I came pretty close. The boil was a lot stronger then just my burner alone and if I unplug the heat stick it's like turning off a light-switch, the boil stops almost instantly.

Was hoping the boil would be a little stronger but considering my water volume was almost double what i use for BIAB and I had a better boil I'm pretty happy.

Also I didn't die of a horrible electric shock. I'm putting that in the win column.

Thanks everyone for all the help and input on this thread. Can't wait to brew!

Too many people use too vigorous a boil. Some darker beers benefit from the additional Melanoids, but pale brews can be ruined by too vigorous a boil. I use just enough to clear the dms precursors in most my brews. anything more than that is a waste of electricity.

Sounds to me like your setup is working well. And your heart stick looks great!

Warning... I cracked my glass cook top last year with 4+ gallons on it. Their not designed for that weight.

cjgenever said:

Too many people use too vigorous a boil. Some darker beers benefit from the additional Melanoids, but pale brews can be ruined by too vigorous a boil. I use just enough to clear the dms precursors in most my brews. anything more than that is a waste of electricity.

Sounds to me like your setup is working well. And your heart stick looks great!

Warning... I cracked my glass cook top last year with 4+ gallons on it. Their not designed for that weight.

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Thanks for the warning, I've got coil elements though, so far they've done OK with the weight.