DFH Score!

SumnerH said:

What moral authority? I explicitly left the moral decisionmaking up to you--that's why I said "If you think stealing isn't a moral issue, that's up to you; personally, I couldn't live with it." if you're cool with stealing, have at it! I'm not gonna set your morals.

The legal authority is pretty clear (and legally, it is stealing), but decide the morals on your own.

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No by making such a big deal of it makes it a moral issue for you. You are getting preachy.

I was "crackin' wise" with my earlier response. As for the OP, I leave him/her to their own conscience. As for the rest of you, can you walk on water? (I can't)

Debate on!

gunner65 said:

No by making such a big deal of it makes it a moral issue for you.

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The fact that you're turning to someone else and saying "hey man, you're preaching!" instead of being comfortable talking to the person/company that got ripped off is a pretty good sign that you know it's theft.

But the ultimate morality of the theft is up to you and your particular circumstances. Personally I don't usually believe in theft, but there are always shades of grey. If I had to steal a loaf of bread for my starving family from a billionaire to keep them alive, I'd be okay with that morally (even though it is theft). Stealing a keg from a middling brewery that hasn't done anything wrong strikes me personally as a bad thing, but ultimately that's up to the person who does it and what their circumstances are.

What I don't like is the attempt to say it's not stealing because you left a deposit with someone; that's just self-delusion. It is theft, and any cop or court will gladly point that out. Accept that, stop pointing fingers at people who point it out to you, and decide what you can live with.

Sometimes I'm a saint, performing good-samaritan deeds and other saintly acts anonymously.

And, sometimes (perhaps 3 times) I'm a thief.

Wish I was perfect, saintly. But I fail occasionally. I'm in that gray area, I guess. Ho hum.

whutever said:

I was "crackin' wise" with my earlier response. As for the OP, I leave him/her to their own conscience. As for the rest of you, can you walk on water? (I can't)

Debate on!

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Bingo!

Shades of gray thats funny.

I originally brought up the legality issue and even went so far to say that I don't really care what you ultimately do... as stated, I was pointing out the fact it was illegal in case the OP wasn't aware so that he could make an informed decision.

However, after reading the subsequent posts, it's pretty hilarious that the people all for it are getting far more indignant over the issue than even the most morally authoritative of posters. The whole "informed decision" was obviously a crapshoot anyways as rather than just accepting they're stealing and being okay with it, it seems people make themselves feel better about stealing through sheer wilful ignorance.

I can guarantee everyone, that at least in my state, it is not theft to keep the keg. Theft would be going to a beer distributor at night and physically stealing kegs without paying for them. If the keg is acquired legally, with a deposit paid, and that keg is then kept, it is not a reportable theft.

Airborneguy said:

I can guarantee everyone, that at least in my state, it is not theft to keep the keg. Theft would be going to a beer distributor at night and physically stealing kegs without paying for them. If the keg is acquired legally, with a deposit paid, and that keg is then kept, it is not a reportable theft.

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amen...

...and my qualifications are that I am the guy who reviews all the crime reports in a particular precinct to make sure they were all written properly and have the proper legal classification.

Airborneguy said:

...and my qualifications are that I am the guy who reviews all the crime reports in a particular precinct to make sure they were all written properly and have the proper legal classification.

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Interesting. Is the keg still the property of the brewery/distributor?

So its not theft, but if you cut the top off, is it destruction of property?

Now I want to steal and destroy stuff.

Next time I rent a apt, I think I'll just keep it....hell, I paid a deposit!

kpr121 said:

Interesting. Is the keg still the property of the brewery/distributor?

So its not theft, but if you cut the top off, is it destruction of property?

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I am sitting here thinking real hard about how this would even go down!

Here is how the bust would go down...

Ring..ring..ring
-911 "Hello, 911 how can I assist you?"
-Liquor Store "Yes, I am Mr. G, I own Mr. G's beverage center in Texas... I sold a gentleman a keg of some fine DFH90 about 6 months ago...and I am calling because my customer still has not returned my keg shell."
-911 "Well Mr. G - that is just CRAZY!!! (Background sounds: come-in 12 - do you copy....12 go ahead.....yes 12 can you go to Mr. G's in Texas...we have a report of a possible theft of a keg shell of Dog-fish90 - customer did not return his keg after 6 months)
-Officer "Dog-Fish 90 huh? ....that is some damn good beer...OK...im on my way - over"
-911 "Sir, our officer will be right over.
Hour 1 passes
Hour 2 passes
Hour 3 passes
etc...
48 Hours passes
1 Week Passes
Ring...ring..ring...
-911 "Hello, 911 how can I assist you?"
-Liquor Store "Yes, I am Mr. G, I own Mr. G's beverage center in Texas...I called last week and an officer was supposed to come out and launch an investigation of a possible missing keg shell"
-911 Silence..
-Liquor Store "Hello...Hello...??"
-911 dial tone......

riverfrontbrewer said:

Next time I rent a apt, I think I'll just keep it....hell, I paid a deposit!

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Different type of deposit! Nice try but not even the same analogy.

Your right it is apples v oranges, but isn't the bottom line of a deposit "I'll give you x dollars so you know that I will return this item in the same shape I received it"

riverfrontbrewer said:

Your right it is apples v oranges, but isn't the bottom line of a deposit "I'll give you x dollars so you know that I will return this item in the same shape I received it"

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Your bottom line is correct, but the difference is this type of deposit exists to hopefully compel the borrower to return property which is being put into their control in a much different manner than one takes control of an apartment. Real Estate laws are much more involved because real estate is treated as a different type of legal property than everything else we own, including vehicles. For example, you cannot burglarize a vehicle in most cases, but you can burglarize an apartment or home.

A keg is nothing more than packaging for a product. The deposit exists to compel the consumer to return the packaging because said packaging is expensive, but legally, a keg has no legal status beyond that of a bottle or can: it is a package.

You can steal a keg of course, but that would only apply under the normal understanding of theft: I remove it from the rear of a distribution center/brewery as they are off-loading them, I stick a gun in the face of the clerk and demand one, etc.

But again, keeping a keg legally acquired to transport beer to your home is not stealing, at least in NY.

An apartment is a container for a person, owned by someone else... the deposit is to encourage you to return it in the same shape as when you received it.

A keg is a container for beer, owned by someone else... the deposit is to encourage you to return it in the same shape as when you received it.

Its the same concept.

An apartment deposit is to discourage you from damaging someone else's property.

A deposit on a keg is to encourage you to return someone else's property.

So, if I have damaged my apartment and don't fix it knowing that this will forfeit my deposit, am I a criminal?

If you cut the roof off , you are...

mixedbrewer said:

An apartment is a container for a person, owned by someone else... the deposit is to encourage you to return it in the same shape as when you received it.

A keg is a container for beer, owned by someone else... the deposit is to encourage you to return it in the same shape as when you received it.

Its the same concept.

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The deposit for an apartment is for damage and cleaning. You leave $250 bucks stating that you will not place abnormal wear and tear on the unit...

A keg deposit $25 deposit is more of an "incentive" to return the keg.. I suppose if you brought the keg back all smashed in - they could still keep it.

In most cases, the deposit is to cover the cost of the pump / ice tub...

mixedbrewer said:

An apartment is a container for a person, owned by someone else... the deposit is to encourage you to return it in the same shape as when you received it.

A keg is a container for beer, owned by someone else... the deposit is to encourage you to return it in the same shape as when you received it.

Its the same concept.

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Not even close. As I stated above, real estate laws are different. Real Estate is a different class of property and is treated much differently in the laws.

You can compare it all you want, you're wrong.

mixedbrewer said:

If you cut the roof off , you are...

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Yes, if you cut the roof off, you have just damaged property outside of the limitations of your unit damage deposit.

Are you seriously trying to compare cutting the roof off of an apartment complex with cutting the top of a $50 keg in efforts to prove some similarity to the nature of the crime? WOW!

Cutting the top of a keg off is damaging it outside the limitations of your deposit.

Furthermore, your apartment deposit covers normal wear and tear, not criminal acts of mischief which result in damage.

mixedbrewer said:

Cutting the top of a keg off is damaging it outside the limitations of your deposit.

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I'm going to have to assume at this point that you can't grasp the concept that real estate is a different class of property.

mixedbrewer said:

Cutting the top of a keg off is damaging it outside the limitations of your deposit.

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Negative... they have my $50 bucks... I chose to let them keep my $50 bucks.. I have signed nothing.... I can do what I wish with what is now MY property...

6 pages of morality and law and not a single post about how awesome it is he got half of a keg of an awesome beer for the cost of the keg deposit.

oh well.

This isn't a property class issue. Its about ruining someone else's property.

turtleboy3737 said:

6 pages of morality and law and not a single post about how awesome it is he got half of a keg of an awesome beer for the cost of the keg deposit.

oh well.

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My thoughts exactly! I never thought I would be harassed about the legality of my awesome score.

Plan on tapping into this beer tonight!

So if I don't recycle my beer bottles that I paid a $.05 deposit on, is that theft?

mixedbrewer said:

This isn't a property class issue. Its about ruining someone else's property.

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It's now MY property... why is that so hard to understand? I paid them $50 bucks for a keg...???

mixedbrewer said:

This isn't a property class issue. Its about ruining someone else's property.

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Someone else's property that is in a different class legally than an apartment, which you keep trying to compare it to.

If you think so... "them" being the rightful owner of course.

Just because its a lesser class of property makes it ok... my mistake.

This is going nowhere...it's like trying to debate religion....

right from wrong will always go nowhere... because some people have the two confused

Well, in the State of NY, I can 100% guarantee you that this isn't stealing, by any definition. You can keep debating it, but you are wrong.

I know nothing about the laws in TN and originally stated that I was talking about NY in my post.

mixedbrewer said:

right from wrong will always go nowhere... because some people have the two confused

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I'm not refuting your points with platitudes. I'm talking about actual laws.