New idea for oxygenating wort

I have a question for some of the scientific members out there. I will never really try this but I just wonder if this will work. The idea is to use Hydrogen Peroxide in the primary fermenter in place of oxygen. Hydrogen Peroxide is H2O2 two hydrogen and two Oxygen molecules. I know some people use it with their hydroponic growing systems and others use it in fish tanks to provide oxygen to fish tank water. Could this work in beer?

Interesting thought. I'm too far (in time) from chemistry courses to know. I'm interested to see what others think, but figure that surely if this would work effectively, homebrewers would be doing it by now.

Here's another thought...
Would heavy water (H30) give body to a dry beer?

I think you'd have to find a source for food safe peroxide. I don't think the over the counter diluted stuff is.

I think it would work but it would have a greater tendency to oxidize the beer than provide oxygen to the yeast. obviously this isnt a concern in hydroponics. read this if you're interested in alternatives to oxygenation: http://www.brewcrazy.com/hull-olive-oil-thesis.pdf

read this if you're interested in alternatives to oxygenation: http://www.brewcrazy.com/hull-olive-oil-thesis.pdf

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Yea... I did read that a few months ago but never tried it. Chris White (I think that's his name) from White labs gave a seminar on fermenting high gravity beers and the olive oil thing was brought up and although he didn't knock it he didn't embrace it either.

I think it would work but it would have a greater tendency to oxidize the beer than provide oxygen to the yeast

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Your probably right on this because I think it breaks down over time and releases oxygen as it breaks down.

King of Cascade said:

I have a question for some of the scientific members out there. I will never really try this but I just wonder if this will work. The idea is to use Hydrogen Peroxide in the primary fermenter in place of oxygen. Hydrogen Peroxide is H2O2 two hydrogen and two Oxygen molecules. I know some people use it with their hydroponic growing systems and others use it in fish tanks to provide oxygen to fish tank water. Could this work in beer?

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I have read discussions on this before and I think there is also a thesis on the results. I don't recall why, but it was deemed inadequate. I'll try to locate the source.

I only trust wiki so far but it seems that the breakdown to O2 and water occurs very quickly. On one hand, that means it wouldn't oxidize by lasting longer than the yeast needed it. On the other hand, it would probably escape the wort very quickly in the form of large bubbles and not be absorbed very efficiently. It might work if you could infuse and then cap off a pressure-suitable fermenter, but that isn't a carboy either.

I suspect it would also kill the yeast. It is used to bleach and sanitize.

I suspect it would also kill the yeast. It is used to bleach and sanitize

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well star san will kill at full strength too

King of Cascade said:

well star san will kill at full strength too

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Yes, but then you weren't asking about using Star San to oxygenate wort now were you.

???????

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue4.6/miller.html

Excerpt;


"To answer your second question, I consulted my friend Dr. George Fix, author of The Principles of Brewing Science (1). Based on his answer, I would not even try to use peroxide as a substitute for an aerating stone. Here's why. Hydrogen peroxide is basically a water molecule with a second oxygen atom loosely attached. That loose oxygen is highly reactive and makes peroxide a powerful sanitizer. As you might expect, adding a dose of sanitizer to a freshly pitched wort clashes with the mission of your yeast. When Dr. Fix tried using peroxide to oxygenate wort, he managed to kill most of the yeast rather than make it grow. The resulting fermentation was typically problematic - long lag period, slow and incomplete attenuation, high levels of by-products, and so forth. Based on Dr. Fix's findings, I do not recommend peroxide as a substitute for air or oxygen in cold wort, and I see no point in calculating the volume of H2O2 required."

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119873258/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01340.htm

Attention all n00bs!!!

This is a theoritical discussion, being held by people with a great deal of brewing experience...Noone here has tried this yet...Please don't try it on your first batch...Stick to what works for now, shaking, stirring, oxygen and stone...When you get some understanding about the brewing process perhaps you might try something like this...But not now. For all you know it could be dangerous to consume....and more than likely it will ruin your batch of beer...ok?

This thread shouldn't have been called "new technique" it is a theory...not something set in stone...

End of PSA, please return to the regularly scheduled discussion

Sorry, but the last time the olive oil stuff was posted, a first time brewer dumped a bunch in his batch...needless to say it didn't turn out..Nervous n00bs sometimes grasp at whatever they read and want to try it all...at once...

true, I think the olive oil was used in the starter only and in concentrations like what you would get by dipping a needle in the oil and rinsing it in a couple of liters or starter wort.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Yes, but then you weren't asking about using Star San to oxygenate wort now were you.

???????

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue4.6/miller.html

Excerpt;


"To answer your second question, I consulted my friend Dr. George Fix, author of The Principles of Brewing Science (1). Based on his answer, I would not even try to use peroxide as a substitute for an aerating stone. Here's why. Hydrogen peroxide is basically a water molecule with a second oxygen atom loosely attached. That loose oxygen is highly reactive and makes peroxide a powerful sanitizer. As you might expect, adding a dose of sanitizer to a freshly pitched wort clashes with the mission of your yeast. When Dr. Fix tried using peroxide to oxygenate wort, he managed to kill most of the yeast rather than make it grow. The resulting fermentation was typically problematic - long lag period, slow and incomplete attenuation, high levels of by-products, and so forth. Based on Dr. Fix's findings, I do not recommend peroxide as a substitute for air or oxygen in cold wort, and I see no point in calculating the volume of H2O2 required."

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119873258/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01340.htm

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It's kind of silly to even try putting peroxide into a wort ALREADY containing the yeast. I could see doing it prior to yeast pitching as an experiment. The fact that Dr. Fix even thought it was worth trying makes his entire body of work suspect. I don't pump 02 after pitching either.

This is almost like suggesting that treating water with campden tablets is ineffective because it will kill your yeast if you pitch it prior to adding the campden... well yeah.

Bobby_M said:

It's kind of silly to even try putting peroxide into a wort ALREADY containing the yeast. I could see doing it prior to yeast pitching as an experiment. The fact that Dr. Fix even thought it was worth trying makes his entire body of work suspect. I don't pump 02 after pitching either.

This is almost like suggesting that treating water with campden tablets is ineffective because it will kill your yeast if you pitch it prior to adding the campden... well yeah.

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I see where you are getting that but, I am just not sure it was intended to be read as if Dr Fix pitched yeast then H2O2. But then, maybe it is. The way it is written sort of eludes to that but, doesn't flat out say that.

I too would hope that it wasn't the case.

On the other hand, I don't understand why it would matter either way. When oxygenating things like mead in doses over time you are doing just that, pitching then oxygenating. I am not saying I am advocating the practice I am just providing links to what I have seen on the topic as I promised. I am pleased enough with the use of Olive Oil or Oxygen that I see no need to switch up. Personally, I'll keep the H2O2 to use for cleaning my ears or treating a cut.

Yes, but then you weren't asking about using Star San to oxygenate wort now were you.

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I was trying to make a point about something at its full strength being more harmful than it's diluted form.

That was the link I was looking for...Thanks!

Not exactly the same, but I know in hydroponic setups, some people put hydrogen peroxide into the water/nutrient solution. It helps keep nasties out and also does provide oxygen to the roots.

I don't know if its a direct thing, or if the peroxide indirectly does something to help the roots absorb O2 from the atmosphere better.

Not exactly the same, but I know in hydroponic setups, some people put hydrogen peroxide into the water/nutrient solution. It helps keep nasties out and also does provide oxygen to the roots. I don't know if its a direct thing, or if the peroxide indirectly does something to help the roots absorb O2 from the atmosphere better.

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I did mention that people use Hydrogen Peroxide in hydroponic set ups to give the roots more oxygen and to sanitize the water. Some people put it in fish tanks because when the HP decomposes it adds oxygen to the water creating a better environment in the tank. With that being said I think it could also be used for jet fuel.

King of Cascade said:

I did mention that people use Hydrogen Peroxide in hydroponic set ups to give the roots more oxygen and to sanitize the water. Some people put it in fish tanks because when the HP decomposes it adds oxygen to the water creating a better environment in the tank. With that being said I think it could also be used for jet fuel.

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I believed it was used in near 100% concentrates in liquid-propelled rockets. Not sure if it still is or not.