Don't Ales Theoretically Lager as Well?

This is just a silly question - but am curious to some of your thoughts. We all know that lager-style beers (Oktoberfest, Bocks, etc...) require cold-conditioning called "lagering" to clear the beer and make it more smooth. However, in looking at my process, don't my ales lager as well?

Here was my process for an IIPA I just did.....(and do for almost every other beer as well)

1) I rack from my fermenter into a keg
2) Put the keg in my kegerator (around 40 degrees), purge the air with C02, and then after a day I hook up C02 to carb
3) Let it condition for 4 weeks or so and then serve

So, technically, am I "lagering" my ales? Or...am I using the same process that you do to lager a beer with lager yeast...but I'm not doing it for clarity purposes?

I know this is neither here nor there...but something I just always questioned regarding the verbage and processes we use in brewing. I think there is a fundamental difference between the process called "lagering" and the style of beer called a "lager"

Lager is a German word that means "storage." It is also used to represent the "Lager" style of beer as that beer was "stored" for a long period in a cool environment. So, yes, if you "store" your ales in a cool environment, then you are Lagering. So essentially, there is not a big difference in the verbage. Especially as ales were not typically "lagered" - they were consumed fairly quickly after production. Further, the Lager style came about to represent a style because as a result of the cold storage, yeast mutated to function at colder fermentation temps. Lager is merely a word with multiple meanings. E.g., "store" in English can represent the act of keeping items for later use, or it can be a noun representing a place to purchase items....not so different from Lager, eh? But brewers also like to separate the usage a little bit by using the act of storing an ale at lager temps for the purpose of clarifying and conditioning as "cold conditioning."

Slightly OT, but a IIPA is the last beer you would want to lager. If you're wating 4 weeks after initial fermentation to drink your hoppy beers, you're missing them when their at their best.

You can't lager an ale. The difference is in how the yeast behaves at cold temps. When cold lager yeasts are still active. So they do what they're meant to do during the lager phase, cleaning up all the byproducts of fermentation, like sulphur.

When you put an ale yeast in a cold temp environment, the yeast go dormant. And like you and me, yeast that is asleep is doing nothing....Definitely not conditioning. Cold conditioning for an ale is a misnomer. All that happens is the yeast flocculates out. It's not doing anything else.

If you want to condition an ale, you keep it warm...

g-star said:

Slightly OT, but a IIPA is the last beer you would want to lager. If you're wating 4 weeks after initial fermentation to drink your hoppy beers, you're missing them when their at their best.

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No, not really.

People always say "IPA's have to be consumed fresh, yadda yadda yadda."

But that doesn't mean you drink green uncarbed beer. The beer STILL has to go through it's natural processes before it's ready to drink. And that takes as long as the bosses, the yeast needs it to take.

I just cracked open an IPA that I bottled maybe 6 months ago, and it's beautiful.

It's perfect.

People over simplify and pass around around "advice" or brewing chestnuts, without really thinking them through. All beers need to go through their processes.

Often the hoppiness of an ipa doesn't really come into it's own, or develop til certain other conditioning in the bottle or keg occurs. Then the hops come to the forefront.

People also forget that IPAs originally were meant to survive long arduous sea journeys. They ofther weren't even consumed for 6 months or more til the ships reached their destinations.

If an IPA stiil needs 4 weeks (or more) to condition, it still needs 4 weeks to condition...otherwise it's green.

Revvy said:

If you want to condition an ale, you keep it warm...

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Revvy - actually, that's what I typically do to condition my ales. My original post was slightly wrong and could have been asked better....but it doesn't take away from my actual question...when an ale is sitting in my kegerator for 6 weeks as I'm drinking it, is it technically "lagering"? I mean, it's sitting for an extended period of time at cold temperatures.

I know it may be semantics, but I just felt like having this discussion:cross:

yournotpeter said:

when an ale is sitting in my kegerator for 6 weeks as I'm drinking it, is it technically "lagering"? I mean, it's sitting for an extended period of time at cold temperatures.

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It depends on what your definition of lagering is. Mine is cold conditioning. The yeast are cleaning up the beer in that extended time. I already told you, that if it's an ale the yeast is NOT doing anything, at least not what Lager yeast is doing in the cold. So like I said above. No, you can't lager an ale....You can STORE an ale, but it's not the same thing as lagering a lager.

Revvy said:

You can STORE an ale, but it's not the same thing as lagering a lager.

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That's the conversation/info I was looking for out of this thread! Again...semantics, I know...but my inner beer geek likes knowing the true difference!

Revvy said:

It depends on what your definition of lagering is. Mine is cold conditioning . . .Cold conditioning for an ale is a misnomer . . .

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From Palmer's How to Brew:
Towards the end of secondary fermentation, the suspended yeast flocculates (settles out) and the beer clears. High molecular weight proteins also settle out during this stage. Tannin/phenol compounds will bind with the proteins and also settle out, greatly smoothing the taste of the beer. This process can be helped by chilling the beer, very similar to the lagering process. In the case of ales, this process is referred to as Cold Conditioning, and is a popular practice at most brewpubs and microbreweries.

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The reference to secondary use may be outdated, but the definition of Cold Conditioning should stand. IMO BigB has it right!

Revvy said:

People also forget that IPAs originally were meant to survive long arduous sea journeys. They ofther weren't even consumed for 6 months or more til the ships reached their destinations.

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That doesn't mean they still had as much of a pronounced hop flavor/aroma after the 6 month journey. It just means the beer had less of a chance of going bad during that journey. I don't think they cared as much about the hop flavor as they did about having something that was safe to drink. In this day and age people obviously brew IPA's for different reasons. Arguably, it can be said that the reason is the fact IPA drinkers these days enjoy strong hop flavor and aroma versus having a highly preserved beverage for ship journeys. I do believe that hop character has a peak time and will fade at some point. In my own experience I've noticed it fades after 7-10 months on my beers. I do agree that a beer has to properly conditon before it's ready to drink, though. As you stated, It's not likely a beer will lose that hop character in as little as 4 weeks after fermentation is done.....

Revvy said:

People also forget that IPAs originally were meant to survive long arduous sea journeys. They ofther weren't even consumed for 6 months or more til the ships reached their destinations.

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exactly why i've never understood the crazy hoppy beer craze that most micros and crafts tend to do now.. i guess since people like them its what they do, but i don't like the Amstel Light bitter beer face just for the sake of it

Revvy said:

It depends on what your definition of lagering is. Mine is cold conditioning. The yeast are cleaning up the beer in that extended time. I already told you, that if it's an ale the yeast is NOT doing anything, at least not what Lager yeast is doing in the cold. So like I said above. No, you can't lager an ale....You can STORE an ale, but it's not the same thing as lagering a lager.

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I disagree with this. In lager brewing there are three phases to "fermentation"
1: fermenting
2: maturation
3: Lagering (Cold Storage)

The Maturation stage is where the yeast are still active and cleaning up byproducts. In traditional German brewing this is the point that the beer is slowly cooled (.5C a day) before it hits the final Lagering temp. During this time the yeast clean up by products.

Once the beer has hit the final Lagering temp the yeast a pretty much dormant.

For a home fewer our "maturation" process is where we raise the temp for the D-Rest. Then when we crash cool to Lagering temp the yeast go dormant.

Most of what is happening during "lagering" is polyphenols and proteins are falling out solution. The precipitation of these elements are what mellows the flavor. This reaction is the same no mater what yeast you use.

Call it what you will, the way most home brewers brew lagers "lager" and "cold store" are synonymous with one another..

Agree with the Rev. You're not lagering, your cold conditioning...dropping proteins and yeast out of suspension and clarifying your beer. You really don't need 4 weeks for an Ale. It won't hurt it typically, but 10-15 days is a good conditioning window for most ales. In my experience, ales will taste better with a little bit of time to acclimate to the CO2 and the keg.

Revvy said:

It depends on what your definition of lagering is. Mine is cold conditioning. The yeast are cleaning up the beer in that extended time. I already told you, that if it's an ale the yeast is NOT doing anything, at least not what Lager yeast is doing in the cold. So like I said above. No, you can't lager an ale....You can STORE an ale, but it's not the same thing as lagering a lager.

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It's semantics really. Pastorianus came about as a mutation amidst the process while the Germans were lagering their ales. Thus became synonymous for cold fermentation and accepted despite it's literal translation.

My understanding was that lagering is typically done at near-freezing temperatures. At those temperatures, even lager yeast is asleep and not doing any cleanup- the primary puropose of lagering is to drop out polyphenols and other moderately-soluble undesirables created during cold fermentation. Is that incorrect?

daksin said:

My understanding was that lagering is typically done at near-freezing temperatures. At those temperatures, even lager yeast is asleep and not doing any cleanup- the primary puropose of lagering is to drop out polyphenols and other moderately-soluble undesirables created during cold fermentation. Is that incorrect?

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Exactly... hence the direct translation of Lager is storage. The word eventually came to represent the style of beer as well. Not the other way around.

daksin said:

My understanding was that lagering is typically done at near-freezing temperatures. At those temperatures, even lager yeast is asleep and not doing any cleanup- the primary puropose of lagering is to drop out polyphenols and other moderately-soluble undesirables created during cold fermentation. Is that incorrect?

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Yep, you've got it! The purpose is to drop out polyphenols, and other undesireables during lagering. It smooths out the beer for a crisper, cleaner finish.

According to Zainasheff and White, yeast does very little, if anything, below 40F and that includes lager yeast. Any cleanup needs to take place above that temp. My true lagers (cool fermentation with lager yeast) get "lagered" for 6-8 weeks around 36F. I "lager/cold condition/whatever" my ales for 4 weeks, sometimes in pails, and sometimes in kegs with about 10 psi to seal them.

helibrewer said:

According to Zainasheff and White, yeast does very little, if anything, below 40F and that includes lager yeast. Any cleanup needs to take place above that temp. My true lagers (cool fermentation with lager yeast) get "lagered" for 6-8 weeks around 36F. I "lager/cold condition/whatever" my ales for 4 weeks, sometimes in pails, and sometimes in kegs with about 10 psi to seal them.

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Exactly! I lager at 0C (I actually set my controller to -0.3C)... There is no yeast activity at that temp...

Revvy said:

It depends on what your definition of lagering is. Mine is cold conditioning. The yeast are cleaning up the beer in that extended time. I already told you, that if it's an ale the yeast is NOT doing anything, at least not what Lager yeast is doing in the cold. So like I said above. No, you can't lager an ale....You can STORE an ale, but it's not the same thing as lagering a lager.

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There is lot going on during the cold conditional of a beer that is not biological in nature, and is purely chemical and physical, and does not require any yeast to be present. Actually, most of what is going on, is not biological. Now if you are lagering in the low 40's which some breweries do, then you will get some yeast activity. Also, this is why it is typically recommended to slowly cool the beer down to proper lagering temps (low 30's) to give the yeast some time to do what they do before they go dormant when the beer reaches lagering temperatures. In other words, whatever yeast contribute, it is finished before lagering begins. As such it is perfectly fine to go ahead and lager an ale

pjj2ba said:

There is lot going on during the cold conditional of a beer that is not biological in nature, and is purely chemical and physical, and does not require any yeast to be present. Actually, most of what is going on, is not biological. Now if you are lagering in the low 40's which some breweries do, then you will get some yeast activity. Also, this is why it is typically recommended to slowly cool the beer down to proper lagering temps (low 30's) to give the yeast some time to do what they do before they go dormant when the beer reaches lagering temperatures. In other words, whatever yeast contribute, it is finished before lagering begins. As such it is perfectly fine to go ahead and lager an ale

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Yep. It's a lot like aging cheeses. When you make a cheddar, you're killing off the bacteria by adding salt, typically. Put the cheese in a block, and put it in a cave or a cold room for a while. I don't know all the specific reactions in beer, but in cheese, you tend to have lipolytic (fat-eating) enzymes that break down dairy fats into flavor compounds. You also get proteolytic enzymes that break down proteins, which is why aged cheddar is crumbly.

I know that the common brewing texts have information about the enzymes that are active during mashing, but I haven't dug into what the specific chemical reactions are during beer aging. Of course, like the yeasts, the enzymatic reactions are going to be a function of temperature as well, so you would in theory be able to target certain flavor characteristics based on the cold storage conditions. I'd imagine someone somewhere has done research on that.