Acetobacter - Lacto infection - how to get rid of it?

Hi,
I am chasing what I have read to be an Acetobacter infection.
I have been chasing this for months.
I think it is air borne in my basement....but that is a guess.

Just used a brand new fermenter with brand new yeast, the yeast starter beer tasted good, like starter beer should with no off flavors.

This is the fermenter - https://plus.google.com/photos/1088...6052646225431515250&oid=108814623863366271869

I opened the fermenter after 2 weeks and took a peak and put the lid back on.

I now cold crashed this lager and was about to rack it off last night into kegs and in disgust I tasted the awful tang I dread.
The beer wont clear when it has this infection.
It has the cidery vinegar tang in it.
It gets worse and the beer slightly clears and ages in a carbed up keg in the kegerator.

So...
What do to besides keep the lid shut?

When I leave my wort sample in my hydrometer glass for a few days it will usually take off and have this same smell tang.

I have seen a few tiny fruit flies in my basement this summer that I have been trying to rid... and I do grind my grain the basement where I brew.

I used to be able to make good beer.... now it is just vinegar.

thanks in advance
haeffnkr

a) Stop grinding grain where you ferment. Recipe for disaster.

b) Flies can also infect a beer. Try to keep the fermenter close as much as possible and keep the flies away.

c) CHECK YOUR TUBING from the chiller/bk to make sure it's sanitary. Replace EVERYTHING that's plastic between the boil and pitching yeast. If you are really attached to your fermentor, you might clean it VERY well, and soak in starsan.j

Some people are just naturally going to have a more infectious environment. They may have to take some precautions that the average homebrewer doesn't. When I brew, I grind my grain outside the garage on the cement, so the wind carries the dust away from the garage. Hopefully by the time I'm chilling the area is clear of dust and so far it hasn't been a problem.

Hold off on throwing that beer out until you see a pellicle or something. Symptoms might be mild now, and it might be just a phase the beer is going through.

I just had the same issue. I quarantined everything plastic that touched my beer post fermentation and bought new stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Thanks for the tips thus far.

I will list my ending/boil process to determine the likely hood of issues....
I have a ebiab system and make 12 gallon batches.

20 minutes left in the boil I add my big immersion chiller.
I add my stir motor paddle that has been starsan-ed and added to the boil with a few minutes left.
I have a ball valve that has cam lock fittings going to a 3' silicon hose.
Lately I have been running boiling wort through the hose and into a pot a few times and dumping the wort back into the kettle and waiting for the 60 minute mark to start chilling.
At the 60 minute mark I start the tap water flowing and pull the hop bag out, then add my stir motor/paddle and run that for 10ish minutes until wort is at ground water temp, which is currently about 79-ish.
Then I switch over to a recirculating pump and ice until I get to the temp I want. (48-60)
I drain the wort into the fermenter, stir it with my oxygen wand and pitch the yeast then seal it up.
I can go from boil to a sealed up fermenter in 20-30 minutes depending on temp.

Where are potential issues with that part of the process?

I can replace the hose of the oxygen wand.
I grind grain in the same area the day before there can be enough airborne nastys to infect the batch in that time frame in my basement/shop/brew area, so I will stop that.
Do I need to keep the boil kettle sealed up?

Can this infection occur in cold crashed beer also?

thanks haeffnkr

The process sounds safe. I am still leery of crushing grains where you work with chilled wort. Any time you open the fermenter to the air there is *some* risk of infection, but generally it's extremely low. The O2 wand is probably safe if you dunk in starsan before and after each use (and I always turn it on for moment or two to blow out all of the wort that may be inside)

You can't seal up the boil kettle while you are using it, but AFTER you are done boiling, it might be a good idea to put a cover on it, especially if there is a lot of grain dust in the immediate area.

+1 grinding elsewhere

A few things:

1. Lacto is the primary infection vector from crushed grain dust, but there are other bacteria including enterobacteria (Bad news) and even wild yeasts that COULD Be introduced -Lacto doesn't form acetic acid / vinegar, though. (Wild yeast strains like Brett CAN produce acetic acid but only in the presence of oxygen)
2. Fruit flies carry Acetobacter -this is likely where the infection comes from.
3. Acetobacter is actually converting your precious ethanol into acetic acid though a reaction that requires oxygen, so not only is your beer souring but it's losing alcohol -true tragedy!


Get Rid of the Infection:

• Kill the microorganism that's creating the infection by sanitizing using multiple methods: high heat, high ph, low ph, optionally: other.
  -sanitize ALL equipment that touches beer from the boil kettle on with near boiling (or boiling) liquid with an alkaline cleaner at or even beyond recommended dosages to kill both with heat and high ph. Acid producing bacteria are obviously fairly resistant to low Ph so just sanitizing with acid-based sanitizers might not be as effective as you think. Then rinse and sanitize with an acid sanitizer such as Starsan (which works via 2 mechanisms). You can then use rubbing alcohol or iodone-based sanitizer if you really want to go crazy.

Keep the infection away:

• Fruit flies must NEVER come in contact with beer / wort post boil. EVER.
• Although this won't keep the infection away, it will prevent the formation of acetic acid by those infection microorganisms: Keep oxygen away from your beer. -Make sure those fermenter lids and air locks all properly seal this is a much bigger deal in secondary / extended aging.

My other bit of advice is to make absolutely sure what you're tasting is actually acetic acid -get second, third and fourth opinions from local home brew club members or even better knowledgeable and experienced beer judges. If these off flavors / the perception of acidity is not acetic then its likely coming form somewhere / something else entirely. This whole troubleshooting path is based upon an assumption that what you're tasting is actually acetic acid. -Uncalibrated "instruments" can make huge errors; an uncalibrated human sense of tastes is extremely error prone, so go find some people with "calibrated taste buds".


Adam

biertourist said:

Get Rid of the Infection:

• Kill the microorganism that's creating the infection by sanitizing using multiple methods: high heat, high ph, low ph, optionally: other.
  -sanitize ALL equipment that touches beer from the boil kettle on with near boiling (or boiling) liquid with an alkaline cleaner at or even beyond recommended dosages to kill both with heat and high ph. Acid producing bacteria are obviously fairly resistant to low Ph so just sanitizing with acid-based sanitizers might not be as effective as you think. Then rinse and sanitize with an acid sanitizer such as Starsan (which works via 2 mechanisms). You can then use rubbing alcohol or iodone-based sanitizer if you really want to go crazy.

Click to expand...

You make some very good points here.

I have been having similar problems as haeffnkr, and we both were discussing our problems with sanke fermenters in another thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/infection-spunding-valve-dirty-blow-off-line-484194/. I have been having about every other batch go bad in the last few months. I also mill the grain in the room I brew, but ferment in a separate room, which I know is not ideal technically, but is not unheard of. I'm wondering if we both have something growing in our fermenters that won't sanitize properly and may need to try the iodone approach. I had been using saniclean pumped through my sankes for about 5 min to sanitize, but am wondering if that might not be enough. I guess I should point out that I am not 100% sure that it is acetobacter (may need to bring it to a bjcp certified judge to confirm), but it does have a acidic/vinegar/tartness to it.

A thought that just popped into my head while writing this, I may need to also nuke all of my cornies too if the regular acid based sanitizers aren't getting this crap killed.

You didn't say how you are sanitizing the oxygen wand, maybe that is the source of infection?

If you are using starsan or similar I would switch to heat sterilization for that component.

haeffnkr said:

...
20 minutes left in the boil I add my big immersion chiller.
...

Click to expand...

Not related to the topic of the thread but, you don't need to drop your chiller in that early. I put mine in at flameout and I've never had an issue. ~210 degree wort will instantly sanitize that thing. For a bigger chiller like yours maybe adding with 1 minute remaining in the boil would be fine.

I have to agree with stop grinding your grain where you make the beer. I believe even in Papazian's book he says not to do that because it can create an infection. Start grinding somewhere not in the basement and I bet your issues will go away.

I would have to disagree, time and temp are two factors for sanitizing with heat. 1 min may be working for you and may work fine in some situations, but for someone fighting a reoccurring infection, adding more infection points would not be recommended. It is the same idea as boiling contaminated water for 15 min before it being safe to drink. I'm sure most bacteria and wild yeasts are killed much quicker than that, but it is a good set time to make sure you get everything. I use a cfc chiller and recirculate the last 15 min to sanitize it, my pump, and my hoses.

I made the dumb money-saving mistake of buying some guys stuff off craigslist...including his old iodine sanitizer.... first time I've ever had an infection on 2 batches. I now have to buy new tubing and sanitizer. Grr.

Also, on the grain note... the brewery I work at mills their grains right next to their kettle system...but no where near their fermenters or anything... in fact, it is in a far off corner in the brewery... but, anywho....

Oh, yes. My original intention of coming here: Does anyone have any recommendation on how to actually keep the infection from spreading? I see the beginning of a lacto infection on the top of my wort in a hefeweizen ale and prefer to not have the sour taste....

Does bottling help stop this or just cold crashing?

jeneliz said:

I made the dumb money-saving mistake of buying some guys stuff off craigslist...including his old iodine sanitizer.... first time I've ever had an infection on 2 batches. I now have to buy new tubing and sanitizer. Grr.

Also, on the grain note... the brewery I work at mills their grains right next to their kettle system...but no where near their fermenters or anything... in fact, it is in a far off corner in the brewery... but, anywho....

Click to expand...

Tell me more....
Is the grain piped into the mash tun?
Is the boil kettle sealed up, especially when the boil stops and the cooling starts?
I assume it is a closed transfer from the boil kettle to the fermenter?
Fermenters opened up at all?

thanks
haeffnkr

Might be worth noting to the sanke keg fermenting folks that repitching yeast from the cone of a fermenter is the #1 infection vector in micro breweries.

-Autolysing yeast cells release essentially "microbe food" into the liquid; it has everything most beer infection bacteria need to survive and thrive. Repitching it and making starters just makes those microbes grow faster and faster.

You need to be very careful when repitching and you need to make sure you fully clean those sanke kegs of all yeast left in the bottom. Many micros will pitch for several generations (varies widely) and then will perform "yeast washing" -which is NOT just rinsing the yeast with water like you hear on home brew sites. It involves either acid or chlorine washing which kills most bacteria and wild yeasts; acid washing uses a mix of nitric and phosphoric acid, I belive to a ph of 2.2 at a certain temp for a certain period of time (1 hour??); many breweries have switched to chlorine tablets as chlorine does not impact the health of the brewers yeast as much as acid washing.

Many breweries will also after a more significant amount of time go back to a pure yeast culture but this practice is largely to prevent genetic drift.

The point is that yeast repitching is a major infection vector so pay attention there and the other point is that repitched yeast generally includes loads of nutrients that help infection bacteria to grow very well / rapidly.

Adam

haeffnkr said:

Thanks for the tips thus far.

I will list my ending/boil process to determine the likely hood of issues....
I have a ebiab system and make 12 gallon batches.

20 minutes left in the boil I add my big immersion chiller.
I add my stir motor paddle that has been starsan-ed and added to the boil with a few minutes left.
I have a ball valve that has cam lock fittings going to a 3' silicon hose.
Lately I have been running boiling wort through the hose and into a pot a few times and dumping the wort back into the kettle and waiting for the 60 minute mark to start chilling.
At the 60 minute mark I start the tap water flowing and pull the hop bag out, then add my stir motor/paddle and run that for 10ish minutes until wort is at ground water temp, which is currently about 79-ish.
Then I switch over to a recirculating pump and ice until I get to the temp I want. (48-60)
I drain the wort into the fermenter, stir it with my oxygen wand and pitch the yeast then seal it up.
I can go from boil to a sealed up fermenter in 20-30 minutes depending on temp.

Where are potential issues with that part of the process?

I can replace the hose of the oxygen wand.
I grind grain in the same area the day before there can be enough airborne nastys to infect the batch in that time frame in my basement/shop/brew area, so I will stop that.
Do I need to keep the boil kettle sealed up?

Can this infection occur in cold crashed beer also?

thanks haeffnkr

Click to expand...

What are you using for a recirc pump and how are you cleaning/sanitizing it?

helibrewer said:

What are you using for a recirc pump and how are you cleaning/sanitizing it?

Click to expand...

I dont use one at all.

thanks
haeffnkr

jeneliz said:

Oh, yes. My original intention of coming here: Does anyone have any recommendation on how to actually keep the infection from spreading? I see the beginning of a lacto infection on the top of my wort in a hefeweizen ale and prefer to not have the sour taste....

Does bottling help stop this or just cold crashing?

Click to expand...

The acid wang that I have will not usually get better with age.
It gets worse in most beers and as the beer gets clearer the wang gets worse in a keg.

When it is cold as carbed it is noticeable... when the beer starts to get warm, it is really bad.

biertourist -
Yes I recently had a Kolsch that I could not pick up the "wang", so I made another batch and repitched it.

The first batch after it cleared has the wang... the second batch is "wang" x 3.
So yes it does multiply for sure.

thanks
Haeffnkr

haeffnkr said:

I dont use one at all.

thanks
haeffnkr

Click to expand...

Sorry, misread how you use the pump, I see it is for the chiller.

Does the O2 wand use a SS stone? If so I would autoclave that (Pressure cooker) or give it an extended boil, those things are prime candidates for biofilm.

helibrewer said:

Sorry, misread how you use the pump, I see it is for the chiller.

Does the O2 wand use a SS stone? If so I would autoclave that (Pressure cooker) or give it an extended boil, those things are prime candidates for biofilm.

Click to expand...

Thanks for checking me
I love my pump and chiller

Yes I have a stainless wand/stone-
Just last week due to my failures, I recently boiled it for 15 minutes, soaked it in Bleach/Vinegar solution rinsed and starsan-ed it and replaced the hose.
Just used it last night so will see how it goes.

What do you recommend to store/sanitize an O2 wand?

thanks
haeffnkr

haeffnkr said:

Thanks for checking me
I love my pump and chiller

Yes I have a stainless wand/stone-
Just last week due to my failures, I recently boiled it for 15 minutes, soaked it in Bleach/Vinegar solution rinsed and starsan-ed it and replaced the hose.
Just used it last night so will see how it goes.

What do you recommend to store/sanitize an O2 wand?

thanks
haeffnkr

Click to expand...

After I autoclave mine I just put it in a 50ml sample tube with a screw on lid for storage.

Tell me more....
Is the grain piped into the mash tun?
Is the boil kettle sealed up, especially when the boil stops and the cooling starts?
I assume it is a closed transfer from the boil kettle to the fermenter?
Fermenters opened up at all?

thanks
haeffnkr

Haeffnkr - not sure if you're asking about my practices or the brewery's...but for me:

- The grain is just thrown into my little mash tun

- The kettle is sealed as it cools, not while it is boiling, though... but, I probably wouldn't want to cover it as it's boiling anyways

- I think, if anything, this is where the problem is - I recently got a new kettle with a spigot on it and have just been open transferring my wort to the fermenter. I had previously siphoned and never had a problem. This would make sense!!

-Never open the fermenter during fermentation...

Thanks for helping me realize the problem!

Also, I realize this may be a lacto infection. What made me question the beer was the permanent (non-popping) bubbles on top of my wort and the thin sheet of white film that is starting to pop up... So, any advice for this would be helpful...though, I may look up another forum!