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RonRock

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I'm planning to set up a RO system as my brewing water supply. I am on a well and will supply the RO system with well water. From the RO I plan to have a storage tank to collect about 20 gallons of RO. I am looking for suggestions on how to do a set up like this. Will the RO water need to be either gravity feed to my HLT or will I need a pump? Or can I use a tank like I have on my well pump?

Suggestions on a RO system to buy? Basically how should I plan to set this up?
 
Most R/O units use bladder tanks as their storage tank. It's a wise idea to get a large one since you'll need lots of water at once when you brew. The tank on your well is also a bladder tank and you should be able to use that. Simply connect the tank to the RO outlet using a Y connector. The other port of the Y connector connects to the R/O tap. When the tank is empty the water pressure from the R/O system fills it until its pressure is not strong enough anymore to compress the air bladder further. Then the R/O filtration stops and you'll have to drain water to get the system to make more water.

This is how my system is set up and I have a 7 gal bladder tank as storage tank next to the R/O system in the basement. I have a tap right in the basement, which I use for brewing water, another tap at the kitchen sink and the ice maker is hooked up as well.

Kai
 
These guys are good. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/user/BulkReefSupplyCom#p/u/30/CmCTro0EZ-U[/ame] Look through their other videos on RO, they cover everything. They sell high quality units and are very competetive.
spectrapure.COM,and thefilterguys.BIZ are good too, I like bulkreefsupply.com best though. DO NOT BUY A CHEAP CHINA EBAY UNIT.
 
The tank on your well is also a bladder tank and you should be able to use that.

I'm sure Kai means "like that" and not that you should use the one for your well. Most of the small systems work as described i.e. they come with a bladder tank of 5 gal or so capacity. Larger bladder tanks can, of course, be used and a bladder tank is a very handy way to store larger quantities of RO water though you can store in any clean vessel. The nice thing about a pressure tank is that you don't need to pump to your brewing gear - the pressure takes care of that.

Other systems (like the one I have) fill an atmospheric tank with the RO unit turned on and off by float switches. There is a bladder tank and that is fed from the atmospheric tank by a pump which turns on whenever the bladder tank pressure gets low and off when it gets high - i.e. it works exactly the same way the well pump does. In such a system it is important to have a passive pressure relief valve installed.

One other thing worthy of mention: RO water is very corrosive relative to more nominal water with a fair amount of calcium in it. You won't see your metallic pressure tank melt before your eyes the first time you turn your RO system on but over time it will develop leaks. Thus it is important to use a tank which is intended for RO water service (plastic, fiberglass, lined metal). If you do any plumbing, the piping should not be of metal either for the same reasons.

I had a lot of fun putting together an RO system from a skid, atmospheric tank, pressure tank and a control box I threw together. If you enjoy that sort of thing fine but I'm sure I wound up spending more than I would have if I'd bought an integrated system. Note that a few brewers report having obtained systems from aquarium supply houses. That seems like a good idea if you only intend to use the RO for brewing. If your well isn't that good and you want to go whole house then there are lots of people out there who would love to set you up with a system. I don't know what they do about existing copper pipe in the home, though.
 
Wateranywhere.com
I run a water system for drinking water and ro for power generation. Most small residential ro systems run on your house water pressure and have limited water production capabilities. If you had a small sliding vane pump, like a Procon pump, you could have continuous flow within the limits of the actual membrane.
Being on a well, do you soften the water? Do you have any iron or manganese to speak of?
 
This raises an important point. If the water is hard and the recovery (fraction of input water that comes out the permeate line) high then calcium carbonate will build up on the membrane and shorten its life. The solution to this problem is a softener installed before the RO unit. Sodium carbonate is much more soluble and does not build up on the membrane. Another potential problem is silica. It too can gum up the membrane but I don't know of anything you can do about that except keep the recovery low. Water softeners seem to pull out some silica - not through exchange - it just deposits on resins and then seems to get washed off during recharging (hypothecating here but the silica level out of my softener is lower than the silica level going in).

The instructions that come with the unit should discuss allowable levels of hardness. The GE units I used to use had a low recovery (about 25%) and consequently high tolerance for hardness. Be guided by what the manufacturer recommends.
 
Good help guys.

Yes I do have a water softener. I don't think I have any Iron in my water. Here is the results from a Ward Labs test,


pH 7.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 479
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.80
Cations / Anions, me/L 9.5 / 8.7

ppm
Sodium, Na 35
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 102
Magnesium, Mg 34
Total Hardness, CaCO3 397
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.9 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 24
Chloride, Cl 1
Carbonate, CO3 < 1 "<" - Not Detected / Below Detection
Bicarbonate, HCO3 433
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 355


I have been considering an RO unit that claims 75 gallons per day, it has an optional unit that says will make it do 150 gpd and reduce the waste by 50%. Not sure if this is what I need or not. And would still need to figure out a holding tank.


http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/75-gpd-ro-di-5-stage-standard-system.html


Optional unit,

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/150-gpd-water-saving-upgrade-kit.html
 
That's pretty hard. I'd definitely feed an RO system with softened water.

The "water saver" puts a second membrane cartridge in the system (series on the concentrate side, parallel on the permeate and restricts the output to maintain higher pressure in the concentrate line. This will require a booster pump unless you house water pressure is quite high. But it will get you more gpd. It is nice to be able to draw the RO water you need for brewing in couple of hours but a waste of capacity when you are not brewing. OTOH these systems are not expensive.

Note that they are equipped with DI cartridges which you may not really need but you'll really know your water is pure coming out of them.

As to a tank, ROmate has ones from 3.6 - 86.7 gal (total - these are just like the bladder tank for your well so useable capacity depends on pressure ranging from 2-50 gal). As such they use standard NPT fittings so you would need some John Guest (the push type connectors used on the RO system you are considering) to NPT adapters. You will become familiar with the McMaster Carr catalogue if you decide to do something like this.

To get most of the capacity of a bladder tank you will want about 50 psi feeding it. This means either a booster pump in front of the RO system (so permeate pressure is high at low flow) or an atmospheric tank feeding the pressure tank via a pump capable of producing that kind of pressure. The booster pump for the RO system is simpler - no atmospheric tank required. OTOH if you run you well system at a reasonably high pressure you might not need it.
 
My well pump comes on at 40psi and off at 60. I have a pretty large pressure tank, sorry I don't recall the size and can't see the label. The tank is taller than my water softener and larger diameter with a 1 1/4" line supplying it. So I'm guessing that supply "should" be OK. But then again I'm just guessing.

Not sure I understand Kaiser's suggestion. He suggests a Y inline with his incoming water. With one branch going to the RO system. Would that mean that I would have a valve on the "Line In" side? In order to use the tank for RO, I would close Line In valve, drain tank then Make RO and fill the tank through the Y.


I'll look at ROmate tanks.

Would another possibility be a holding tank mounted on a high shelf? I could let gravity fill my HLT. Not nearly as nice as a pressure tank, but might work.

Best case would be to pipe in the RO to the house water supply. But I've been told that that would be very wasteful as far as waste water from the RO.


Sorry one more question. When these RO systems say that they make 150 Gallons per Day, is that true? I'm sure it depends on supply pressure. If so with a 150 gpd system I would be making 6.25 gph. 3 hours and I'd have plenty of water for a brew.




Edit, I just scrolled up and see that AJ has addressed some of these points. I will slow down and pay closer attention to the help I'm getting here. Too many directions this early in the morning.
 
Large pressure tanks are quite expensive compared to grabbing a 15 gallon open head barrel and installing a Kent float valve for $15. I'd put a manual ball valve leading up to it and only open it the day before you want to brew. While you could put it up on a high shelf or stand, it's only slightly more hassle to keep it lower and either pump or bucket transfer to the HLT. Finally, you could even put a float valve in your HLT assuming it will hold all the RO you'd need for the brew day.
 
From what little looking I've done, I can see that you are correct about prices. Although a nice large pressure tank would be best, price wise that ain't gonna happen. Anytime soon at least.

I did get to thinking about maybe a RV or Camper holding tank. I think they should have different sizes available and potable water pumps.
 
Yeah. I'm thinking of a pump from the tank to the HLT. But you may have a good point. If I had a March setting lower than the tank I could use it as a transfer pump. Or simply use the March that is already on my system. But a separate pump would be nice, and I'd have a back up pump on hand.
 
There are lots of ways to skin this cat. The least expensive would be to not use a pressure tank at all. Let the permeate line from the RO unit drain into anything convenient such as your HLT, carboys, jugs or a polyethylene tank obtained for the purpose. If you want to mount that tank higher and use gravity to fill on brew day, that's fine. For years I brewed in the kitchen but had the RO system in the basement. Over the course of a few days I'd fill a large tank and then pump the water upstairs on brew days with a general purpose pump I bought at Home Despot. I cut a hole in the floor in the cabinet under the kitchen sink and ran a garden hose and an extension cord for the pump through that hole. When I needed water I just put the hose in the vessel I wanted to fill and plugged in the extension cord. Crude, but it worked very nicely.

Now, do these systems deliver the rated amounts? Yes, they do provided the supply pressure is high enough. Essentially RO works by pushing water molecules through holes so tiny that only water molecules will go through. The minimum (theoretical) pressure required to move water through these holes is that sufficient to overcome the osmotic pressure of the dissolved stuff which in your case is a relatively hefty 4.9 psig (because the water is so hard). Beyond that level the flow rate is more or less proportional to the pressure. The manufacturer ought to be able to tell you how much flow you will get with a given supply pressure. Remember that while the permeate flow is relatively low the concentrate flow may be higher by a factor of as much as 3 so that feed flow can be several times permeate flow. This can be significant because of the pressure drop across particulate and carbon block filters which precede the membrane.

Related to this is the question of waste (concentrate). Fancier units are equipped with high pressure pumps, a needle valve which controls concentrate/feed pressure by restricting concentrate flow at the concentrate outlet and, in some cases, an arrangement that allows some of the concentrate to be fed back to the input. Adjusting these controls gives a measure of control over the amount of permeate produced per unit of feed. On my system (no feedback) I can get a liter and a quarter of permeate with about half a liter (it's off the low end of the flow meter scale so it's a guess) of concentrate per minute. Thus my recovery is 1.25/1.75 = 73%. I don't usually run it that way, though. 50% recovery (1 gal down the drain for every gal into the atmospheric tank) is more usual. The GE units I used to use had 25% recovery (3 gal down the drain for every gal of permeate). This is, as you have hinted, only an issue if a whole house system in installed. Whole house systems are way more expensive than the systems you are looking at. Where people are drawing from a lousy lake or briny well they are justified. That's what they are made for. Your concern with recovery was tied to waste in a whole house system. Whole house systems have the controls I have been describing and allow the kinds of recovery (half a gallon wasted for each gallon and a quarter produced) I gave as an example. If you were going to do whole house you wouldn't plumb outdoor bibs, the toilets or the lawn sprinklers to the RO system. You might only plumb drinking (kitchen and bathroom faucets) and, of course, brewing, loads to it. You could continue to operate the dishwasher, clothes washer and bathtub/shower from the softener.

I only mentioned the ROmate tanks because that's what I have and you will be struck with the similarity between them and the pressure tank you already have for the well. I'm sure the people that sell the RO systems you are considering have a line of tanks of convenient size equipped with John Guest connectors. They show one in the video JNye gave the link for. This video will also make clear how the "Y" connection (which is a "T" in the video) is made at the pressure tank.
 
I'd spring for the booster pump on the 150 gpd. I run a 75 gpd with a booster pump. Its really nice. I can make ~3 gallons per hour with COLD water, ~55*. Warmer = faster. You should call them and get the DI taken out of the system as you prolly don't need it. My system is set up in the laundry room and I run the waste water into the washer when I'm making water. I also use about a 50/50 mix RO to RO waste for brewing. This reduces the mineral content but also gives me carbon filtered water(no chlorine).
 
I'm thinking about buying one of these RO systems. Cheap route, no pressure tank, mostly use for brewing. My question is do you recommend the 5th stage DI filter or will I be ok with a 4 stage. Isn't a small amount of minerals better for brewing anyway?
 
We're brewing beer here, not cleaning the Hubble mirror.... I got the 4-stage and it works great. It's really nice not to have to buy water when I want to brew something other than a RIS or whatever.
 
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