Boiling hard water to remove bicarbonate

Just thought I'd share how I've been dealing with really hard water after reading the Water book. When overseas I had an RO source and my efficiency was upper 70s assuming I didn't overstuff my mash tun. I lost about 8-10% moving home, but that also included equipment changes. I remedied the hardware differences and still didn't get back entirely to my old numbers until reading the water book.

My well water analysis


As it looks into the kettle, nice and clear at 50-55 degrees F. As it warms up and is exposed to air it gets a very light orange haze due to the iron in the water.


I add 0.43g gypsum per liter of water total, but I only add 2/3 of this upfront as part of my water treatment based on the amount needed to pull bicarbonate down theoretically to 80ppm. The other 1/3 is added to the kettle to get me back up to 50ppm Ca.

This is what it looks like after boiling for 15-20 minutes and the heat is shut off


A couple times I added 1 tsp of acid per 8L ahead of time during my boiling treatment. A skim forms on the surface. If skimmed off and allowed to dry on a spoon or ladle, it's really flaky. I'm curious what mineral is coming out like this.


Then it cools overnight and the particulates settle out. With only one day it isn't perfectly clear, but with 2 it is. You can see the amount of sediment left on the bottom after decanting most water off. It can be a couple of mm deep of soft chalky residue.


It's far more than the approximately 4 tsp of gypsum added. The first time I did it, I was shocked what comes out. No wonder it affects things.

I still need to add a few % of acid malt or a couple tsp of phosphoric acid to get the mash to 5.3-5.5. I need 1 tsp of 10% phosphoric acid per 5-6l of sparge water to drop its pH to 6.

All in all I'm happy with the results. Obviously It is more work, but I usually boil the water a couple days ahead at the same time as making my yeast starter.

I realize sulfate is high for most styles (250-260), but I guess that's my house character until I opt for an RO system.

Some days the iron level must be higher or more time causes more oxidation and settling. This is a bucket of treated water that wasn't used in my last brew and has sat still for over a week. It's quite a vibrant orange.

Quaker said:

A couple times I added 1 tsp of acid per 8L ahead of time during my boiling treatment. A skim forms on the surface. If skimmed off and allowed to dry on a spoon or ladle, it's really flaky. I'm curious what mineral is coming out like this.

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If the acid is phosphoric acid it is probably hydroxyl apatite. If not, it would have to be calcium carbonate. That would fizz if you dropped acid on it so you could check that way.

You have a lot of iron. Does enough of it precipitate out to remove the iron taste?

I have a 3-way comparison of 1 gallon pilsner-ish batches lagering at the moment to assess impacts: softened water (negligible iron and all else, but high sodium and bicarbonate), treated as described above, and completely untreated well water. I intended an RO or distilled based fourth, but didn't get to it. But I hope that comparison will reveal something.

Update of my 3-way batch; not what I expected in terms of preference.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6041436

Quaker said:

Update of my 3-way batch; not what I expected in terms of preference.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6041436

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?

??

What's the question?

Thought maybe link was bad, but just tested it again with the mobile app.

The link reverts to the home page of Homebrewtalk on a computer

Odd. The link is intended to go to this mornings posts in my Base malt experiment thread. Stills works for me, although that's not too helpful to others.

Attempt #2

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/base-malt-experiment-404932/index5.html#post5918595

Quaker said:

Odd. The link is intended to go to this mornings posts in my Base malt experiment thread. Stills works for me, although that's not too helpful to others.

Attempt #2

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/base-malt-experiment-404932/index5.html#post5918595

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Thanks that works

Fun experiment. Now you need to add ro /distilled (and build it up) in the mix to see how it compares.

I didn't go RO, because I know that'll be ideal. I think I'll end up installing a system here eventually. My beer and coffee was better when I lived overseas and has an RO tap.

I've had a couple batches with an early off flavor I described as rubber band. It usually disappears a little way through a keg. I'm wondering if it might be iron derived and is precipitating out and drawn off in early pulls.

I bailed on tradition and stubbornness. I upgraded to an RO system. Just brewed a pale ale today using built up RO. Back to the efficiencies, wort clarity, and distinct break I knew and loved while brewing in China.

Quaker said:

I bailed on tradition and stubbornness. I upgraded to an RO system. Just brewed a pale ale today using built up RO. Back to the efficiencies, wort clarity, and distinct break I knew and loved while brewing in China.

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I had to "like" this post, because I did something similar.

My water tastes great, and although I notice white stuff on my shower head and spaghetti pots, I wanted to make it work.

I did the precipate method first, using pickling lime, and was shocked at the amount of precipitate.

I finally broke down and bought an RO system, and since then I easily hit my mash pH plan, the beer clears well, and it tastes great. The only time I use 100% tap water is for my oatmeal stout, and that's great as well.

Sometimes giving in is the best course of action!

As many have found, hard and alkaline water often tastes great. If one believed the adage: If the water tastes good, it will make good beer, then the results above would be positive. However, some waters ARE too mineralized to well suit brewing.

Yooper said:

Sometimes giving in is the best course of action!

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I sense that you feel that using RO is a cop-out somehow. And I guess it is but I think it is the obvious thing to do in many cases if not most cases as it gives the brewer ultimate control over his liquor. Those of us who came up the hard way often think the younger should have to go what we went through (and that comment applies to more than brewing) but more and more home and commercial brewers are going this way and RO has allowed breweries to be built in places in the world where they could not be have been built without RO. The only down side is that people using RO aren't forced to learn about many of the aspects of water chemistry that we had to in order to make decent beer before RO became available.

ajdelange said:

I sense that you feel that using RO is a cop-out somehow. And I guess it is but I think it is the obvious thing to do in many cases if not most cases as it gives the brewer ultimate control over his liquor. Those of us who came up the hard way often think the younger should have to go what we went through (and that comment applies to more than brewing) but more and more home and commercial brewers are going this way and RO has allowed breweries to be built in places in the world where they could not be have been built without RO. The only down side is that people using RO aren't forced to learn about many of the aspects of water chemistry that we had to in order to make decent beer before RO became available.

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Oh, no, I don't feel that the RO system is a cop out! I am thrilled with it. I dislike the waste water that comes from it, but so far I live in a place where water is cheap and abundant. I was more referring to the adage that Martin quoted, and that I knew, "If the water tastes great, it's good for brewing".

Here I had a ton of great tasting cheap water- and I couldn't make a kolsch at all. That was my worst- the hallertauer hops were harsh and the flavor was harsh in this wonderfully light colored beer.

Thanks to you guys, I learned enough about water chemistry to know why, and stop fighting it. That's what I meant.

I was probably projecting my own feelings then. RO does make it seem just too easy.

ajdelange said:

The only down side is that people using RO aren't forced to learn about many of the aspects of water chemistry that we had to in order to make decent beer before RO became available.

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AJ, I think you've overstated that. Using RO water does not make it possible to totally ignore water chemistry in brewing. A brewer can still totally screw up their brewing with RO. I've had clients that have brewed with pure RO and no other adjustments, and others that have used RO and didn't pay attention to pH. Both paid dearly with their poor products. One of those breweries that called me in too late, went out of business when they had to dump hundreds of barrels of beer.

Functionally, a brewer might be able to mash an amber colored grist to a proper pH without doing anything to RO water. However, a combination of treatments might be required of a brewer in order to get a mash to a proper pH for most other grists. A yellow grist is going to need an external acid and/or a calcium addition to get the pH down. Darker grists might need an alkalinity addition.

I know you already know this, but didn't want the casual reader to miss-apply your comment.

Ultimately this will lead to more people enjoying the hobby. I was just getting serious about water when AJ started posting here. Think of the primer just like you would a reading primer. Start easy and learn from there. Nice thing is, you aren't learning to UNDO anything as was the case before. You get to start from scratch and build up/out from there. Ultimately people will be less likely to give up and just accept what they get. This was a subject made unnecessarily hard by the conflicting and flat out wrong assumptions that were already out there.

So, too easy? Nope. Think of it as just starting in the correct place. You can go as far as you want or need to from there.

ajdelange said:

The only down side is that people using RO aren't forced to learn about many of the aspects of water chemistry that we had to in order to make decent beer before RO became available.

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mabrungard said:

AJ, I think you've overstated that. Using RO water does not make it possible to totally ignore water chemistry in brewing.

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It doesn't say that. It says that a brewer who is concerned only with synthesis doesn't have to learn the analysis half of the problem. He never has to do an alkalinity test so he doesn't need to understand the theory behind that nor does he need to understand how lime decarbonation works. I can see how the other statement I made

ajdelange said:

RO does make it seem just too easy.

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might cause this reaction but not this one.

mabrungard said:

A brewer can still totally screw up their brewing with RO.

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No doubt about that but not knowing the difference between quick lime and slaked lime isn't going to hurt him (unless he tries to use one or the other for pH adjusment.

mabrungard said:

I know you already know this, but didn't want the casual reader to miss-apply your comment.

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I certainly agree that there is still plenty to understand. It's just quite a bit less than it used to be and I sometimes worry that not having the background leads to less solid knowledge but I know I am thinking more like an academic here (which I definitely am not) than a home (or even most commercial) brewers.