Invigorated by sours, but what to do Next?

The ability to brew sours has completely reinvigorated my interest in homebrewing. I've always loved sours, but for some reason, I was under the impression this couldn't be done at home. I've brewed a half dozen batches (all partial mash), and they've been excellent, but I've never been as excited as I am now.

Last weekend, I brewed Northern Brewer's Northern Lambic Grand Cru. In a couple weeks, I'll transfer it to secondary and then let it sit in a corner for 18-24 months to let the brett do its work.

Eventually, I'd like to get a nice rotation going where I have new sours aging every 3-6 months. In the meantime, however, I need to get better at brewing.

I'm definitely going to move to AG. I understand that process and my lauter tun is almost finished.

But I'm trying to figure out my next steps. My equipment is probably infected with brett and lacto and whatelse, and I'm excited about that, especially as my beers age.

In about 2 weeks, my chateau northern cru is going to be ready to transfer to secondary, and I'll have a nice yeast cake that it would be fun to reuse. I'd like to do something I can bottle within the next few months, so the "wild" bugs won't have much time to take hold, but I might get a little something.

Here's what I'm considering:
1) Forget the sour, and do a "starter" AG recipe, such as Ed's Haus Pale or Centennial Blonde. This would give me a chance to figure out my new tun with a forgiving recipe. I would probably rack this onto the yeast from my grand cru, but I doubt it would have much time to develop.
2) Do a sour mash aka 'fake sour' recipe. Somebody said that sour mash is like cooking a steak in a microwave (it will kinda work, but it's not the same as one done right). A shortcut to a beer style I love while waiting for the non-shortcut to age seems okay to me.
3) Do some other form of classic sour recipe, but don't let it age. (What would it mean to do a non-aged Flander's Red? Would this be the sweet side of Rodenbach without the sour counternote?)

I may even have a chance to do two batches that weekend. It'll be a 5 day weekend for me, so I could easily try two different things provided I come up with a plan.

Any suggestions?

There's a lot of questions here, but Imma try an do my best!

monkeybox said:

1) Forget the sour, and do a "starter" AG recipe, such as Ed's Haus Pale or Centennial Blonde. This would give me a chance to figure out my new tun with a forgiving recipe. I would probably rack this onto the yeast from my grand cru, but I doubt it would have much time to develop.

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Small secret is that sours don't have to be done with all-grain. I make award winning lambics with extract. Extract! It's no lie. So yes, I would make a 'normal' beer with your new mash tun.

monkeybox said:

2) Do a sour mash aka 'fake sour' recipe. Somebody said that sour mash is like cooking a steak in a microwave (it will kinda work, but it's not the same as one done right). A shortcut to a beer style I love while waiting for the non-shortcut to age seems okay to me.

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Sour mash isn't like cooking a steak in the microwave, but it does give widely varied results. The "microwave steak" would be more attuned to adding lactic acid to sour a beer. Yes, it would be sour, but it'd be 'one note'.

monkeybox said:

3) Do some other form of classic sour recipe, but don't let it age. (What would it mean to do a non-aged Flander's Red? Would this be the sweet side of Rodenbach without the sour counternote?)

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I'm not sure what kind of flavor profile you're looking for, but not aging it will only allow the really nice and wonderful flavors to quit developing. A Flanders Red needs 10-18 months to get to where I like it.


All that being said, here's what I would do. I'd figure out your new mash tun with a regular beer (and get new clean beer transferring equipment). Then I'd save the yeast from your lambic for another lambic. Why? Lambic Blend is only really good in lambics. Roeselare is SO MUCH better in all other sours. Knowing that, I'd brew a sour with Roeselare soon, then brew another in 6 months, then use the cake from the first to brew the third and so on and so forth.

Sour pipelines are a lot of work, but they are SOOOOO worth it.

Hope that helps!!

Here is a recipe to try if you want a "quick" sour. I had this one ready in two months and turned out really sour using the homemade lacto culture. I mix mine with a little rasberry syrup at serving time(traditional way of server a berliner weisse).

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f72/alferman-imperial-berliner-weisse-255777/

AmandaK said:

Lambic Blend is only really good in lambics. Roeselare is SO MUCH better in all other sours. Knowing that, I'd brew a sour with Roeselare soon, then brew another in 6 months, then use the cake from the first to brew the third and so on and so forth.

Sour pipelines are a lot of work, but they are SOOOOO worth it.

Hope that helps!!

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I hope this isn't too much of a hijack (I also have an NB Grand Cru as well as a Oud Bruin going and I really want to reuse those cakes).

Would you elaborate on why Roeselare is so much better than Lambic blend? I was under the impression that they used the same critters but in different ratios. Maybe they use different strains (different Brett??)

Is there a time limit on the viability to such cakes? Say I wanted to leave my brews in primary for 12-18 months – would there be any problem reusing the cakes then?

AmandaK said:

Small secret is that sours don't have to be done with all-grain. I make award winning lambics with extract. Extract! It's no lie. So yes, I would make a 'normal' beer with your new mash tun.

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Can you talk about this a bit more? Do you use pre-hopped extract kits or just DME/LME with a hop boil? Preference of type of DME (light, sparkling, amber, etc).

I love sours and I want to start a solera soon and I was planning on a simple AG pale as the base but if I could do extract, it would be even easier. Thanks!!

BTW - GO CARDINALS!!

Sours are easy if you wait for them to finish. Mine have always shown sourness at 2 months, but benefited from more time.

Sour mash is the hard way and is a roll of the dice. For your first, buy a yeast / bacteria blend like Roeselare. A flanders red based on Jamil's recipe in Brewing Classic Styles would be a great start. It's a partial mash (extract with some steeping grains) in that book. He also lists an AG recipe (which I've done several times).

I've never had a bad go at a sour mash but I always do the sour wort process. Limiting oxygen exposure is really the key.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

I've never had a bad go at a sour mash but I always do the sour wort process. Limiting oxygen exposure is really the key.

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That's exactly what I've been doing too. I've done 4 sour mashes and they've all come out great. I use a 5 gallon cooler and purge with co2 and then cover with Saran wrap right over the mash, then purge again, then wrap the top in Saran wrap and let it sit for 1-3 days. It's worked great for me so far!

cadillacandy said:

That's exactly what I've been doing too. I've done 4 sour mashes and they've all come out great. I use a 5 gallon cooler and purge with co2 and then cover with Saran wrap right over the mash, then purge again, then wrap the top in Saran wrap and let it sit for 1-3 days. It's worked great for me so far!

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I guess I'll give it a go next time. I was put off by tales of vomit beer.

WineIsRed said:

Would you elaborate on why Roeselare is so much better than Lambic blend? I was under the impression that they used the same critters but in different ratios. Maybe they use different strains (different Brett??)

Is there a time limit on the viability to such cakes? Say I wanted to leave my brews in primary for 12-18 months – would there be any problem reusing the cakes then?

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Roeselare is better at most sours because it gives a nice, full sourness and can give a 'cherry pie' type aroma and flavor. Lambic blend is much more funky, barnyardy and leathery. Yes, Lambic Blend also sours a beer, but it's a much more complex and earthy sourness than the Roeselare.

I would definitely reuse those cakes. I superstitiously pitch my old lambic blend cakes into my newer lambics. I'll also be reusing the cake out of my Golden Sour (Roeselare) to make a Supplication type beer.

cardinalsfan said:

Can you talk about this a bit more? Do you use pre-hopped extract kits or just DME/LME with a hop boil? Preference of type of DME (light, sparkling, amber, etc).

I love sours and I want to start a solera soon and I was planning on a simple AG pale as the base but if I could do extract, it would be even easier. Thanks!!

BTW - GO CARDINALS!!

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Check the recipe in my recipe drop down. There is a whole thread about it.

PS - Let's go for the sweep tonight against the Rockies!

If you're thinking of a "quick" sour then based off your location add some Jolly Pumpkin dregs. I've had them turn out fantastic beers after making them into a starter and used in primary. JP has some super aggressive bugs that work quick. If all grain, mash low and make a good sized starter, then you'll be good to go in 6 months or less. Those dregs are a great way to get a sour pipeline rolling while you wait for the slower blends to do their work. BTW, the fresher the bottle the better, drinking the beer's not as good but the viability of the critters is much better.

You could also accelerate the sour flavor a little bit by adding acidulated malt to the grain bill, I usually add a pound or two when I make sour porters, I like them to get a sour flavor without fermenting completely out. Add your brett before you add your rosalie, the ph will drop too fast to get the all of the brett flavors out if you do them all at once.