Does Roselare in Flanders Red need a starter?

Hi Everyone

Sorry if this is a re-post. I'm brewing my first sour tomorrow - Jamil's Flander's Red -and I'm planning on pitching Roselare from the get-go.

If it's a simple 5 gal batch do I need to make a starter or can I just smack & pitch directly into the wort? Thanks!

No, just pitch.

TimT said:

No, just pitch.

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+1

You will get much quicker and in my opinion better results if you pitch with Roeslare initially. It has Saccharomyces as well as Brett and bugs in the blend so it has everything you need.

Many people I know that have used a different strain first have complained that it lacked the sourness they were looking for, but when they made a second beer and then just pitched on top of that yeast cake they had a much better results.

NcBrewer35 said:

+1
Many people I know that have used a different strain first have complained that it lacked the sourness they were looking for, but when they made a second beer and then just pitched on top of that yeast cake they had a much better results.

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My first sour was also Jamil's Flanders. Pitched some ale yeast and then Roeselare in the secondary. It's been 18~ months in secondary. It's tastes fine but not real sour. More sweetness than sour. I'll be pitching another red on top (hopefully this weekend) of the cake.

I do have one sour that's just Roeselare and it is nice and sour after 13~ months. I'll be tossing on top of that cake soon as well.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I read the OP as asking whether they needed a starter WITH the Roeselare blend, not IN ADDITION TO the Roeselare blend.

Pretty much any brewery will be essentially making a "starter" for every beer since they need to culture up enough yeast to brew a large scale batch.

As a practical matter, lots of people report great results by underpitching for sours - eg no starter. If they conditions are optimal for yeast, then the other bugs eat comparatively less sugar. So, its really up to you in terms of how sour you are going for. The more you do to favor yeast, the more sugar the yeast will eat, and the less sour it will be. So, if you want to pucker up, underaerate and underpitch. If you want more balance, treat it like you would a normal yeast.

Yeah, just pitch. There is some thoughts that building up a starter will throw off the balance of bugs and yeasts in the blend and end up giving you a different thing. My 14 month flanders red was perfect with it, my 14 month Oud Bruin was toooo sour, now making another batch to blend. It's really all about your malt bill, OG and unfermentable (or less fermentable) sugars.

Great. Thanks for all of the responses.

I was actually surfing around and saw where the OP said to make 2 batches. The first with just the one smack pack of Roseselare & then rack another batch onto the cake of the 1st batch & blend to taste. I might give that a shot.

So if I wanted to brew a larger batch of sour I would just have to buy multiple smack packs?

From Wyeast's website:

"Propagation of this culture is not recommended and will result in a change of the proportions of the individual components."

http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=194

Sorry for the stupid question, just looking into brewing a sour, will be my first. You don't secondary it or anything right, just keep on yeast cake the whole time? If so, use glass fermenters always?

People are mixed about it. I haven't, but I know others that do. I think it's just a preference thing. I definitely don't know what the science says.

joshrosborne said:

People are mixed about it. I haven't, but I know others that do. I think it's just a preference thing. I definitely don't know what the science says.

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It is a preference thing. With that being said, its Lambic tradition to leave the beer on the yeast the entire time.

For me...I want to do what Cantillon does.

Xpertskir said:

It is a preference thing. With that being said, its Lambic tradition to leave the beer on the yeast the entire time.

For me...I want to do what Cantillon does.

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which is.... leave the beer on yeast the whole time or what?

Lambics are traditionally fermented start to finish in the same vessel. Flanders ales are transferred to a secondary vessel. I don't know of any commercial breweries that differ from those practices, for whatever that may be worth.

Xpertskir said:

It is a preference thing. With that being said, its Lambic tradition to leave the beer on the yeast the entire time.

For me...I want to do what Cantillon does.

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Also, do you always use glass then, I'm guessing? Wouldn't want to age the thing in a plastic bucket/bottle for a year or so, right?

Glass will give much less ingress of oxygen over a year's time, and will probably be the better solution. I use glass for anything that sits in a fermentor for more than a month or so.

Matteo57 said:

Also, do you always use glass then, I'm guessing? Wouldn't want to age the thing in a plastic bucket/bottle for a year or so, right?

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I, and people with far more experience brewing sours (Oldsock for instance), use Better Bottles with no issues. I'd be wary to use buckets for them, but I have never tried.

joshrosborne said:

I, and people with far more experience brewing sours (Oldsock for instance), use Better Bottles with no issues. I'd be wary to use buckets for them, but I have never tried.

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This. So what if there is a little O2 that comes in through the BB(a fact that is somewhat unproven/tested), O2 entering through the barrel is one of the things that gives barrel aged sours their character.

Plus Brett is a great antioxidant.


And per the previous question. I do it both ways, on the yeast for the duration, and rack after a month or two. That's more about my sour fermenter capacity though, than it is about philosophy.

Matteo57 said:

Also, do you always use glass then, I'm guessing? Wouldn't want to age the thing in a plastic bucket/bottle for a year or so, right?

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after i kids all of my glass carboys were given away and all of my sours ferment in better bottles for at least 18 months. on better bottle's web site they have results of studies on the permeability of their bottles and for what i can tell it is not an issue at all.

eastoak said:

after i kids all of my glass carboys were given away and all of my sours ferment in better bottles for at least 18 months. on better bottle's web site they have results of studies on the permeability of their bottles and for what i can tell it is not an issue at all.

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I have heard that if used for an extended time you do sometimes get flavor leaching from the plastic..

I think glass carboys are the better way to go for
-less oxygen getting in
-a clearer view of what's going on in the carboy
-easier clean-up afterwards ensuring all the brett bugs are gone (plastic would be harder to get rid of the brett)

I would also recommend adding malto-dextrine to your recipe since by my experience Brett loves chewing on those sugars and thusly giving you a sour beer more quickly.
Incidentally in my first Jamil flanders batch I used S-05 and Roselare together in primary and for my second batch dumped the flanders onto the yeastcake of the first. I have a much better formed pellicule now on the newer second batch than on the first.

Matteo57 said:

I have heard that if used for an extended time you do sometimes get flavor leaching from the plastic..

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this is not true. it seems to make sense since we are used to plastic giving off flavors, think a bicycle water bottle in the sun. the truth is you would be hard pressed to pick out the better bottle beer in a taste test and there have been studies done that show this. here is another link to more technical info on better bottles.

HopHoarder said:

I think glass carboys are the better way to go for
-less oxygen getting in
-a clearer view of what's going on in the carboy
-easier clean-up afterwards ensuring all the brett bugs are gone (plastic would be harder to get rid of the brett)

I would also recommend adding malto-dextrine to your recipe since by my experience Brett loves chewing on those sugars and thusly giving you a sour beer more quickly.
Incidentally in my first Jamil flanders batch I used S-05 and Roselare together in primary and for my second batch dumped the flanders onto the yeastcake of the first. I have a much better formed pellicule now on the newer second batch than on the first.

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there is nothing wrong with fermenting in glass, it's a great vessel but all of your other points are not really true.
-brett is no harder to clean off of plastic.
-malto dextrin is not needed to make a sour beer.
-a pellicle means nothing in other than there is enough oxygen present in your fermenter that the brett yeast will form a barrier against it. if you were able to remove the O2 you may get no pellicle at all.