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Old 05-30-2012, 05:33 PM   #1
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Default Pliny the Younger Clone

**See Post 42 for the results**

After lots of research, listening to interviews, and emailing the man himself, I'm brewing a PTY clone this weekend. I'm pretty confident my recipe is close. High level overview is: First I took the PTE recipe, and multiplied each hop addtion (90, 45, 30, 0) by 1.5. I've heard Vinnie say multiple times that PTE has almost exactly double the hops of their IPA, and the Younger has triple. I know PTY is supposed to be mostly about Simcoe/Amarillo, so I geared the hop additions around that. I've heard Vinnie say he likes to use Centennial as 'filler' so that's why it's there. Then I switched the 90min and most of the 45min additions over to hop extract. This was actually the difficult part; calculating the amount needed.

To make a very long story short, I ended up calcing that ~ 4oz of a 17.5% AA hop was needed to bitter this beer. That's around 70AAU. Then i calculated that the Northern Brewer hopshots (despite their crappy formula) are around 10AAU each. In other words, each 5ml syringe of hop shot is equivilent to 1oz of a 10% AA hop. So while it sounds ridiculous, I'm using 7 syringes of hop shot for the 90 minute addition.

The final piece to the puzzle was the dry hop schedule. If you listen to the 3 or 4 shows that Vinnie has been on from the Brewing Network, it's mostly there in bits and pieces. I think I found the last little bit in some old BYO article. My dry hop schedule looks almost identical to the one that's kicking around the internet, so I'm assuming they got the info from the same places.

So I ended up emailing Vinnie my proposed recipe to see if he could tell me if I was in the ball park. I wrote the grain bill as just percentages, and the hops in pound/bbl. Give the man credit, as he actually replied like 2 days later! He said he's never scaled the Younger recipe down to homebrew levels, but he said what I had looked good. One thing that struck me as odd is that he said the Younger did have 4% C40 malt in it. I'm assuming that's a relativly new addition, as I remember him saying in the past that Younger was just 2-row and carapils. So with that little tweak, here's the recipe I'm brewing.

Target OG: 1.089
Target FG: 1.008
ABV: 10.5%
IBU: ......?

16.5lbs 2-Row
12oz Carapils
12oz Crystal 40
1.33lbs Dextrose
Mash @ 148

35ml Hop Extract @ 90
5ml Hop Extract @ 45
.35oz CTZ @ 45
1.5oz Simcoe @ 30
1.5oz Centennial @ 0
1.5oz Amarillo @ 0
2.5oz Simcoe @ 0

Fermenting with 2 packs US-05 at around 65F

Dry Hop 1: .5oz ea: Amarillo, Simcoe, Centennial
Dry Hop 2: 1oz ea: Amarillo, Centenial
Dry Hop 3: 1oz ea: Simcoe, CTZ
Dry Hop 4: .5oz ea Amarillo, Simcoe

I'm going to crash the primary before I transfer to the secondary to drop as much yeast out of suspension as possible. Vinnie does mention they drop the hops before each subsequent dry hop. I don't have a conical and I don't like monkeying with bags for dry hops, so that won't happen. I'll just do each addition for 4-5 days, and leave them in there.

That's about it for now. I'll post some pictures and updates how the brew day went this weekend.

Has anyone else tried to clone this beer? Any tips or tricks?


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Old 05-30-2012, 05:46 PM   #2
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Thanks for doing all the legwork and sharing. I'll brew this next and post my results. Not sure though if I'll be able to fill the hop bill.

Regards,
Brobeman



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Old 05-30-2012, 05:54 PM   #3
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No worries. http://www.themadfermentationist.com/ also did a clone of this beer about a year or two ago. His recipe looks pretty similar to mine as well. More or less the same hops, just different amounts.

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Old 05-30-2012, 06:26 PM   #4
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The dryhop for Younger is 1.00 oz. per gallon of beer, and the last of the 4 additions is done in the keg.

Elder is 0.75 oz. dryhops per gallon in 3 additions.

Vinnie also uses pellets (not leaf hops) for both Pliny beers. Just throwing that out there for anyone who's curious.

Lastly, this would definitely be a beer where I would make a big nasty starter of WLP001. I would never resort to dry yeast for this beast.

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Old 05-30-2012, 06:39 PM   #5
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I would suggest dropping the carapils if you add the C40 to the recipe. Important to keep the FG low in a beer like this and the C40 and carapils will both do exactly the opposite of that.

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Old 05-30-2012, 06:56 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
Lastly, this would definitely be a beer where I would make a big nasty starter of WLP001. I would never resort to dry yeast for this beast.
Some friends and I brewed 20 gallons of PTE last year in two 10 gallon back-to-back batches. We blended the wort 50/50 between the batches to account for any differences that may have occured. We then pitched WLP001 in 10 gallons and US05 in 10 gallons. Fermented both in a temperature controlled refrigerator. Starting and finished gravities came out the same. In blind tasting, nobody could tell which was which. There was an ever so slight difference between the two beers, but the US05 was picked each time as the preferred one. I will have no issue using US05 on a PTE or PTY beer again.
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Old 05-30-2012, 06:58 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by foltster View Post
I would suggest dropping the carapils if you add the C40 to the recipe. Important to keep the FG low in a beer like this and the C40 and carapils will both do exactly the opposite of that.
Oh, i hear you. The carapils and dextrose are taking the FG in opposite directions, but this nonetheless, I'm pretty sure this is the grain bill they brew. Someone once asked Vinnie about that, and he said the carapils was always in the recipe so he didn't want to change it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews
The dryhop for Younger is 1.00 oz. per gallon of beer, and the last of the 4 additions is done in the keg.
I'm not too far from your numbers. I've got 6.5oz of dry hops for a 6 gallon batch.

As far as dry yeast goes, I was kicking around the idea of making a 4QT starter of WLP001. I've had great luck with US05 for double IPAs though. Had a couple beers score in the mid 40s with that yeast, so I have no qualms with it. I'm running to the LHBS tonight for the grain, so I might pick up some 001 while i'm there......maybe

Here's a quick shot of the hops and extract going in this beer. I'll be using all but about 2 ounces of that.


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Old 05-30-2012, 07:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottland View Post
...I took the PTE recipe, and multiplied each hop addtion... by 1.33. I've heard Vinnie say multiple times that PTE has almost exactly double the hops of their IPA, and the Younger has triple.
Wouldn't that be x1.5 then?

IPA x 2 = PTE
IPA x 3 = PTY
3/2 = 1.5
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Old 05-30-2012, 07:41 PM   #9
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Wouldn't that be x1.5 then?

IPA x 2 = PTE
IPA x 3 = PTY
3/2 = 1.5
Ya, you're right. That's what I did was well (divided the PTE by 2, then multiplied by 3.) I just wrote it wrong. Good catch! I fixed it up top.
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Old 05-30-2012, 08:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW View Post
Some friends and I brewed 20 gallons of PTE last year in two 10 gallon back-to-back batches. We blended the wort 50/50 between the batches to account for any differences that may have occured. We then pitched WLP001 in 10 gallons and US05 in 10 gallons. Fermented both in a temperature controlled refrigerator. Starting and finished gravities came out the same. In blind tasting, nobody could tell which was which. There was an ever so slight difference between the two beers, but the US05 was picked each time as the preferred one. I will have no issue using US05 on a PTE or PTY beer again.
I don't doubt that they may have tasted similar since US-05 and WLP001 have almost identical traits, but for a big beer like Younger, you probably won't end up with the same FG. A properly sized WLP001 starter will attenuate more.
Yeast health is of the utmost importance... especially for a beer at 1.089 OG. You hear this time and time from pro brewers, Chris White, and on Jamil's podcast. The brewer of Avery fervently emphasized the importance of this for Maharaja. I've also used both as well and I'm convinced that a liquid yeast colony of adequate size is the way to go for big beers such as this. At 1.070 OG or less, it may not matter so much. But we're talking about 1.089 here.


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